@ Carl Herman (LA County Nonpartisan Examiner)
Thank you for the further response.
To your point 1: The paradox of government. I now understand quite clearly your view of what government is today. The bridge I cannot cross (and I believe it CANNOT be crossed) is that somehow such a power can be turned and used for good. You believe (it appears) that this bridge can be crossed. If so, you are quite naïve. Government is force. Government attracts those who believe force is a valid method to order society. Once allowed a foot in the door, government will always grow. History has quite clearly demonstrated that monopoly power of violence will respect no rules and knows no boundaries. I believe it must always be so. You believe this basic fact of human nature can be changed. It cannot.
Further to your comment: “Collective work, teamwork, businesses, families are all forms of "We the People." Want to get something big done? Ok; you'll need a team and governance.”
I agree fully, as long as the relationships are voluntary, and decisions by some are not forced on others not so inclined. You make clear in your writing that you do not agree with my view. But at least we are clear with each other.
Your point 2: “Money can, and we argue should, be a public rather than a private service.”
Absolutely no reason for this to be so, if by “public” you mean coerced. If by “public” you mean that a large group (I call it a “market”) must voluntarily agree on its usage, I agree. But this is true for any trade; money is not unique in this. Money is one of the simplest trades known to man, but its use in division of labor and store of wealth make it the most valuable for those who want to control us. There is nothing about money that says its form must be dictated from on high. To be clear, I want no state involvement in money. On this, I will suggest you read anything by Murray Rothbard on this subject.
CH: “Here's your future for considering public sidewalks, public fire departments, or a public monetary system; 1 of 2 choices:” and the two choices that follow.
I don’t spend time debating with Toyota about the cars they will build. I don’t spend time debating with Apple about the feature of the iPod. Entrepreneurs believe there is a void in the market, and they fill it. If the market agrees, they win. If not, they lose. Without any help from me, they have enriched my life far beyond anything I could have done on my own.
CH: “Mosquito: all I ask is for my voice to be respected. All I ask is my proposal to be considered by our community. All I ask is my freedom of speech. All I want is freedom of choice. “CH: ”If the community chooses to decline this proposal, fine. If it accepts, fine. We have examples of both choices and can continue to collect data for our community's ongoing consideration.”
So far, no problem.CH: ”Ok, mosquito: see any problem in this, or are we in agreement? Is this choice slavery for you? If so, how? Is this theft? If so, how? You don't like our community's choices, or I don't: fine; we always have the freedom to move.
This is where I have a problem. By definition, you have defined a system where majority rules. Therefore the minority will always be persecuted, with your solution being the poor sap is “allowed” to move. Consider that rights are only rights if they extend to the minority, and the smallest minority is the individual. You offer a system where 51% can enslave 49% on any subject at any time. Yes, it is slavery in the best case. This thinking results in genocide in the worst case.
CH: “Yeah, I propose we tax your ass as a community member to help pay for it…Where's the slavery or theft in this philosophy?”
Yes, what if I don’t want to pay? What will you do to me? How will you enforce this community decision? If you say that my payment is voluntary, we are in agreement. A simple statement to this effect will suffice.
CH: “So, mosquito: you have a problem with a market-driven freedom of choice?”
I have no problem with market driven freedom of choice. You confuse terms and concepts. What you are describing is not market driven, and it is not freedom of choice. Freedom of choice is not exercised by a majority on a minority. A majority, making a decision to be imposed upon me by force, is not freedom of choice. It is slavery. It is theft. If an individual is not free to make his own choice, there is no freedom of choice. There is slavery and theft.
Your comments so far make clear that you do not support my individual right to make my individual decision. Your own examples demonstrate that you will use the power of government in a coercive way, yet somehow you believe this power can be contained. I will again state, this power CANNOT be contained.
The battle in your head must be very painful, as these contradictory beliefs you hold are in deadly opposition to each other.
Follow-on post below:
@Carl Herman (LA County Nonpartisan Examiner)
"Let's see if we can stand together:" "...are you good with all proposals on our table for public consideration? Are we together on this?"
We cannot stand together. I am not good with your proposals.
You and Ms. Brown believe in the State. You believe this power can be harnessed for good. You believe the power can be limited. These beliefs require you to believe in slavery and/or theft as a means to organize society. You cannot get around this. If you have a way around this, present your philosophy. For a hundred years you will be held up by government as a champion, in the same way and for the same reasons they do Keynes.
It cannot be defended, so it is just not discussed. At least not in polite society. This is why there is angst when Dr. North compares Brownian economics to the economics of Hitler. It is impolite. However it is true, and too often, in the end, the result is the same. State power cannot be contained. It cannot be controlled. It will go wherever it wants. This often leads to deaths in the tens of millions. There is too much history to demonstrate this to allow you the possibility that you may have missed it.
Each of you, in your own way, is acting to further lead sheep to slaughter.