I don’t mean my post (as I leave this to you to decide), but
the comments section….
Still holding fresh the memory of our little Jordan Peterson
slugfest
in the
comments, I offer a tidbit from
a discussion between Jordan
Peterson and Ben Shapiro.
As it is a
video, I will do my best to capture the dialogue; I will only paraphrase it as
the two speak very rapidly, sometimes jamming several thoughts into one.
You can hear the dialogue directly, beginning
at the 42:00 minute mark.
Shapiro asks about the meaning of the Tree of Good and Evil
from the Garden of Eden; what did man do wrong by eating from the tree? He constructs his arguments and then answers
his question as follows:
1)
The rules for behavior are embedded in the
object, and God made these rules in Creation.
2)
What makes a man good is what makes a man unique
– his reason.
3)
Acting in accordance with right reason is what
makes an action good.
4)
God makes the universe along these lines of
right reason; natural law is the human attempt to understand the lines along
which God created the universe.
5)
Where humans went wrong is when they decided to separate
values from the universe – humans decided that values are a completely separate
thing from how God made the universe.
6)
We believe that we can construct the rules
arbitrarily; we can depart from natural law.
7)
So eating from the Tree changes the nature of
good and evil, from nature coming with God’s rules to humans believing they can
use their own intuition to supplant God’s rules with their own rules.
Peterson replies:
1)
That’s associated to some degree with Milton’s
warning in Paradise Lost; Milton
portrays Lucifer as the spirit of unbridled rationality – which accounts for
the Catholic Church’s antagonism of rationality. (I will touch on the second part of this
comment later.)
2)
It is the same idea in the Tower of Babel: human
beings have a proclivity to erect their own dogmatic ethical systems and then
to expand them into a grandiosity that challenges the transcendent – and that
is a totalitarian catastrophe.
3)
For Milton, Satan was the spirit that eternally
does this, believing “everything I know is enough.” This supplants what I don’t know, the
transcendent.
4)
How that is associated with the Knowledge of
Good and Evil, well you’re making some headway toward sorting that out.
This realization causes Peterson to perhaps reconsider his
interpretation of the meaning of the story of the Tree and Adam and Eve.
Of course, if Peterson was a faithful reader
of bionic mosquito,
he would
have come to see this long ago.
If he chases this to its logical conclusion, this understanding
will end up causing Peterson – and maybe Shapiro, although I don’t know his
thoughts as well – to reconsider his conclusions from the Enlightenment:
individual good, group bad (which in his construct already causes some contradictions,
as the “individual good” part really has no defense against the infinite number
of gender pronouns – the fighting against which has made his fame).
What was the Enlightenment but the final nail in the coffin
of supplanting God’s natural law for man’s reason – a coffin which first started
taking shape with the Renaissance and Reformation (well, really Adam and Eve,
but you understand my meaning) and took full flower with the Progressive Era? Once man’s reason was no longer chained by an
underlying ethic, every path was possible – and the Enlightenment offered us a complete
range, from Jefferson to Rousseau. And worse,
but more on this shortly.
At shortly after the 20 minute mark, Shapiro introduces this
topic of the wave in current politics of favoring the group over the
individual. He also wants to address
divisions within the group of thinkers who are friends of the Enlightenment –
of which he includes both himself and Peterson (and Peterson does not object to
this label).
Shapiro points to the numerous differences amongst this
group of thinkers who are sympathetic to the Enlightenment – to include people
like Steven Pinker and Sam Harris. So what
is the possibility of revivifying Enlightenment mentality – because we see the
rise of the rejection of the Enlightenment in favor of this group mentality? We forget: if we toss out this Enlightenment
in favor of old-style tribalism, things get ugly.
But tribalism was
tossed out with the Enlightenment, and it resulted in the bloodiest century
known to man. How much uglier were
things during “tribalism”? Peterson has
to deal with this contradiction as well, as he rightly points to the evils of
communism without also reconciling from whence it came.
In any case, to Shapiro’s statement Peterson replies: that’s
the question: what [from the Enlightenment] do you toss out the window before
things get ugly?
Conclusion
Nope, that is the wrong question. The question is: what is
required to be reintroduced that the Enlightenment destroyed?
Tribes: a group of people formed around kinship, culture,
tradition, religion. Man will forever
form tribes. There is no possibility of individual
freedom without such a generally accepted social structure.
Of course, there is “bad” in tribes.
But, to borrow Peterson’s take on patriarchy,
that’s not all that there is.
Peterson himself recognizes the value of
tribe over individualism – first of all, by valuing the patriarchy; second on
his position on open borders.
Regarding
open borders and immigration (and I paraphrase):
A complex system cannot tolerate
extensive transformation over too short a time.
Arms-open-to-everyone immigration policy is rubbish. It should not be assumed that citizens of
societies that have not evolved functional individual rights-predicated
polities will hold values in keeping with such polities.
[And in his dripping, sarcastic
tone] Don’t assume that when they immigrate that they will have their innate
democratic longings flourish.
What is this other than a statement of the reality of
tribes? Might not be your definition or
my definition of a tribe, but it is a statement that recognizes differences in kinship,
culture, tradition, and religion.
The only open question: around what values and characteristics
will these tribes be formed? Will it be
tribes that humans naturally chose or those forced upon them by the same
creatures intent on destroying their naturally chosen tribes?
That is the question, Dr. Peterson.
Epilogue
Regarding Peterson’s comment about the Catholic Church’s
antagonism to rationality: I am certainly no expert on this matter, but have
done enough reading about the Middle Ages and the Church to at least comment. Everyone can point to an example supportive
of Peterson’s view here or there on this matter, but all of it is without
context and in any case ignores the larger trends.
Finally, one last Peterson contradiction: for one who leans
so heavily on myth, it seems strange to label the Catholic Church as
antagonistic to rationality. Both
Peterson and the Church look(ed) to the Bible for rationality.
Man’s reason cannot explain everything nor understand
everything. Peterson both accepts this
and rejects this. This seems irrational.
P.S. But I still find
good aspects in his work.