My conversation with The
NAPster October 24, 2017 at 5:28 AM, from my post “I
Love Hans Hoppe!” I will primarily
focus on my replies; if you are concerned about context feel free to read the
entire dialogue.
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NAPster, I offer the following three posts in response. I
think this is the most efficient way I can move the conversation forward. After
you read these, I will gladly discuss further.
The
Logical Inconsistency of Open Borders...for libertarians…
In this last post, "open borders" Walter Block
decides I might be on to something; the first two posts set up the
"something."
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I have read these blog posts, but
they do not respond directly to the points I raised above. I am still
interested in your views on those points.
…it seems that there is a
particular outcome you want – a particular make-up of the society in which you
live – and your position on immigration in a world with states is designed to
achieve that outcome…
The closest I can come to a libertarian immigration policy
in world with state borders is a policy of invitation and guarantee: invitation
by a citizen, with the citizen guaranteeing that the immigrant will not be a
burden to society and will not be a criminal. Consequences attach to the citizen
if either of these is breeched.
So…this doesn’t assume any particular outcome; it is merely
as close to a libertarian policy in a world of state borders that I can come up
with.
But where I do differ with you and
Hoppe is that I don’t believe it is consistent with libertarian philosophy to
advocate for the initiation of force – through the use of the state as border
control – to create a society that rejects the legitimacy of the initiation of
force….
I do not advocate for the initiation of force; I also do not
advocate for cultural and political suicide. I do not accept that there can be
any libertarian policy on immigration as long as there is a state; there is no
such thing as a “do nothing” option – every option involves an initiation of
force. Merkel did the “do nothing option”; do you believe this to be a
libertarian solution? Do you believe she did not initiate force against those
already living in Germany?
As long as there is a state – impossible under the NAP but
accepted by libertarian minarchists – there will be state borders. To have
state borders requires some sort of defense of those borders – defense being
one of the few tasks allotted to government by minarchists. How does the state
defend its borders without knowing who comes and goes and having some idea of
their intentions?
Now, for the anarchist: the state cannot be derived from the
NAP; how can the NAP offer a solution to state borders? I go further: to have a
libertarian policy on immigration requires 1) absolute private property rights,
and 2) no government intervention in immigration matters.
Libertarians are looking for an answer on immigration in a
world of state borders that the NAP cannot offer – the NAP is impotent in this
situation, it is incapable of squaring this circle.
I can imagine that someone might
respond “Well then, how are we supposed to get to a libertarian society if we
don’t forcefully exclude or remove those who would reject its very principles?”
I admit to being one of the libertarian wimps when it comes
to “forcibly removing” people already living in peace. I lean on other moral
principles in this regard. This is me, personally. But I understand the view.
But what of “exclude”? If you and a dozen friends created
your own “society,” and you wanted this to be a society solely comprised of
Christian families, are you not allowed to exclude others? For libertarians,
there is only one answer to this; that our only option is to rely on the state
to make this happen (because we do not have absolute property rights) means
what, exactly?
Because we are forced to work via the state in this matter,
are we to merely accept being left naked regarding our own personal
preferences, our own property? This is a very non-libertarian concept, don’t
you think?
…there are some obvious peaceful
means that come to mind that may enable progress towards that goal, such as
group shunning of unwanted newcomers…
Illegal today. Even individual shunning is illegal – try not
baking the wedding cake for the gay couple. It is impossible to square the
circle you are attempting to square.
Finally, I appreciate your distinction of type 1 and type 2
OBLs. The type 1 I view as either useful idiots or criminally complicit. For
the type 2, I have given my best response above (well, actually my best
responses are probably in my more formal posts).
I will summarize: to advocate for open borders in a world
absent full private property rights IS NOT LIBERTARIAN.
It is a circle that cannot be squared.
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Finally, I would like to state my
version of your summary: to advocate for state action in any world IS NOT
LIBERTARIAN.
Let’s begin at the end:
1)
I do not advocate for state action; I am stuck
with state action – no matter what – on this topic as long as there are state
borders.
2)
I am honest enough to admit that my position on
this topic is not libertarian, as no position in a world with state borders can
be libertarian; you are unable to either see this or admit this.
As to shunning, not all is lost:
consumers are still allowed to shun vendors, tenants to shun landlords,
employees to shun employers, and neighbors to shun neighbors.
Yes, all of the shunning that makes a communist happy and
makes a libertarian cringe. In each of your examples save the last one,
consider that it is illegal for the one who owns property to “shun,” and it is
legal for the one without property to “shun.”
[I will add now, even the last one is problematic as it
depends on who is doing the shunning, who is being shunned, and the (supposed)
motives behind the actions of the one doing the shunning.]
My position is clear: it takes TWO things to come to a
libertarian open borders position in a world of state borders:
1)
Absolute property rights and all property in
private hands
2)
No state involvement in border control
I say why not push for the first; you say let’s take the
second without the first. My priority is at the foundation of libertarianism –
without absolute private property rights, there is no such thing as
“libertarian”; your solution works with the cultural Marxists and Gramsciists
and the state to destroy western civilization.
So, when faced with two actions necessary to move to a
libertarian policy on border control, why do you side with THAT crowd? The
crowd that is worried about outcomes, not means?
I’m not saying that things have
worked out well in Germany, but libertarianism is concerned solely with means,
not outcomes.
It is comments such as these from less-than-well-considered
libertarian positions that will ensure that libertarianism will never gain
ground. Some applications of libertarian theory are not so simple, yet too many
libertarians bellow simple slogans, ensuring we remain marginalized.
One argument that
paleoconservatives make about libertarians is that we tend to become so enamored
of our "abstract" though correct theory that we tend to underweigh
concrete political or cultural problems, and here is a lovely example.
He is writing of educational vouchers, but his thoughts are
perfectly applicable to the topic we are discussing, and I make the point here:
Conclusion
Something has been bothering me about our entire
conversation. It is a conversation covering ground that I have covered a dozen
times, but this doesn't bother me - nothing says I had the same conversation
with you, and I don't expect every reader to have read everything I have
written on a subject.
But this is what was bothering me: I HAVE had this
same conversation with you.