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Recent events have opened a plethora of possibilities, some not imaginable even a few weeks ago.
Fund the Destruction of Western Civilization? No problem!
Numerous billionaires, who have no problem spreading countless millions of dollars to (so-called) elite universities when these universities and their students were actively destroying western civilization suddenly have a problem when someone utters the “P” word.
Antitrust Prosecution, Anyone?
On October 20, 2016, the Antitrust Division of the Department of Justice ("DOJ") and Federal Trade Commission ("FTC") (collectively, the "federal antitrust agencies") jointly issued guidance for human resource ("HR") professionals regarding the application of the federal antitrust laws to hiring practices and compensation decisions.
The guidance asserts that an agreement among employers who compete for talent to limit or fix the terms of employment for potential hires may violate the federal antitrust laws if the agreement constrains individual firm decision-making with regard to wages, salaries, terms of employment, or job opportunities.
Seems simple enough. So how about this?
Over two dozen Wall Street law firms are taking a stand against growing instances of antisemitism on college campuses with a warning about students' future employment.
Where, O Slur, is Thy Sting?
The charge of anti-Semitism for even saying the word “Jew”
or “Israel” is being buried right before our eyes.
The Left is Consuming Itself
This was a certainty – just as feminism was going to be consumed by trans athletes, support for people of color ™ was going to be embraced until it touched on the people of color living between the river and the sea ™.
Well, the so-called right isn’t doing any better, with one outdoing the other on the desire to fulfill zany end-times lunacy.
Christian Zionists for Genocide?
Speaking of zany end-times lunacy…. Can we put a knife in the horrendous blasphemy that is Scofield, once and for all?
So-called Christians in Nazi Germany cheered on similar brutalities. From the ADL:
Churches throughout Europe were mostly silent while Jews were persecuted, deported and murdered by the Nazis. Churches, especially those in Nazi Germany, sought to act, as institutions tend to do, in their own best interests -- narrowly defined, short-sighted interests.
The list of "bystanders" -- those who declined to challenge the Third Reich in any way -- that emerges from any study of the Holocaust is long and depressing. Few organizations, in or outside Nazi Germany, did much to resist Nazism or aid its victims.
Whatever happened to “never again”? More pointedly for CUFI Christians: What happened to Jesus? Wait, is it anti-Semitic to say something positive about the most influential Jew in history?
One of the big differences in Christianity it seems is whether you view Christians or modern Jews as the chosen people of God (Israel). The former view was held by all Christians for 1800 years or so (Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant). The latter view is responsible for this ridiculous and bloodstained kowtowing among many US right-wing Christians toward the secular state of Israel.
ReplyDeleteI was talking to someone about just this issue the other day. While he does believe that today's Jews remain in some way in God's plans, he doesn't automatically assume that this means it is the modern state of Israel, or that today's state of Israel will even be around in the next years.
DeleteI had never heard someone consider it this way.
We don't know whether God will deal with the current state or nation of Israel. However, we know God still has business to attend to with the Jewish people. Read Romans 11, Zechariah 13-14, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-9 and many more.
DeleteSome of these passages even refer to a temple existing when Jesus comes back. None of that means Christians should support immoral, unethical behaviors by Jews or Israel. God will accomplish it all by His own means and in His own timing. Christians' purpose is to share the gospel, make disciples, and teach all that Jesus commanded us.
https://thecrosssectionrmb.blogspot.com/
ATL, no Christian is responsible for what violence Jews or Israel has committed against Palestinians. Those who have performed the atrocities are guilty themselves. Maybe if a Christian gives money to Israel or supports atrocities directly they share some responsibility.
DeleteThe truth is God can choose whoever He wants for whatever purpose He wants. He chose Abraham. He chose Isaac not Ishmael. He chose Jacob not Esau. He also chose Cyrus to carry out His will. He chose the 12 plus Paul to be apostles. He chose the elect to someday believe in the gospel and become what we call the universal church. I think it is silly to argue over who is the "true chosen" or the "1 chosen people". It flies in the face of the complexity of everything written.
"...no Christian is responsible for what violence Jews or Israel has committed against Palestinians."
DeleteIf you are saying the numerous Christian Zionist zealots like John Hagee are not, in fact, Christian, you will not find in me the first witness for the defense.
However, if that is not your point, I suggest that the political support afforded by millions of Christians in the United States for the state of Israel is a very big reason why the state of Israel receives unconditional support from the US government and US military.
In this case, they do carry some share of the responsibility of what is happening right now today, and what has been happening over the course of the last few decades.
I stand with the Christians from the first 1800 years. According to my interpretation of Scripture, it is quite clear that God removed the mantle of "chosen" from the Jewish people and placed it on the Church at the time of Christ and pinned it down within one generation. Everyone who comes to God through Christ becomes a part of the Church and no one comes to God except through Christ, which means those Jews (or anyone else) who refuse are left out in the cold.
DeleteRMB,
DeleteContrary to your statement, we DO know that God will deal with the current state and nation of Israel. We just don't know how. My belief is that this dealing (judgement) will be conducted in the same manner as that of any other state or nation and their reward/punishment will be conditional on how their behavior stacks up against the example and teaching of Christ.
"There is no more Jew, nor Greek..."
BM,
DeleteI am with you on the subject of John Hagee.
If support shown and given by Christians to the State of Israel makes them responsible to some degree for the actions of the State of Israel, then it can be said that, in the same way, those who vote in elections for a candidate who wins is somewhat responsible for that candidate's actions after he is elected.
RMB,
DeleteI apologize for being so inflammatory with my comment. I had forgotten that you hold at least partially to the view I was criticizing. I do respect your opinion very much.
How to debate religious views among friends? Especially when innocent lives are at stake? I do not know. Forgive me, but lately it has been very disconcerting to see this resurgence of right-wing war fever to back Israel 'at all costs' and if anyone objects (or brings up any inconvenient theological or historical points criticizing support for Israel) they are anti-Semitic. I know you have not said this, nor would I think that you ever would. But many loud voices are (e.g. Shapiro, Haley, DeSantis, et al).
My point is that Dispensationalism or Christian Zionism within the American conservative Christian demographic is a prime driver of political support for war in the Mid-East that acts in favor Israel's interests just like Progressive Christianity of the late 19th century and its idea of a 'messianic nation' was a prime driver of support for US entry into WWI (see Richard Gamble, "The War for Righteousness").
I think it is fine to say that the Jewish people are special in a historical sense, but Romans 11 is the same passage I would point to in order to demonstrate that the Jews are no longer (exclusively) Israel and that many, apart from the remnant of Jews who came to Christ, were cut off the tree. I think from this it follows that the promises (and curses) made to Israel by God apply to all Christians, Jew and Gentile alike and not the nation-state of Israel, a land full of unbelievers.
I think this understanding of Scripture would go a long way in removing American support for Israel's awful military campaign in Gaza.
BM,
DeleteThat is a healthy way of looking at it I think. I hope there is a mass conversion of Jews at some point in the future.
Roger,
This idea of collective guilt, especially when filtered through a democratic state, is a tangled mess of an issue. I think one could select clear cut cases from either elections or support for Israel in identifying blame on the part of supporters for the actions of the elected officials or Israel. But also the reverse.
For instance, if Haley openly campaigns on nuking Iran, and I vote for her, I am culpable, at least in some way, for when she does actually nuke Iran. But if I vote for Vivek, because I, with good reason, believe he is the least likely to kill innocent people abroad, I should not be culpable if he then goes against his campaign rhetoric and nukes Iran after being elected.
Bionic, you make some good points.
Delete"However, if that is not your point, I suggest that the political support afforded by millions of Christians in the United States for the state of Israel is a very big reason why the state of Israel receives unconditional support from the US government and US military.
In this case, they do carry some share of the responsibility of what is happening right now today, and what has been happening over the course of the last few decades."
There is a cascade of Christian support for Israel turning into political support for Israel. Then Israel getting carte blanche from the US regime. However, we are still looking at several step from normal everyday Christians to the US regime. There can be varying levels of responsibility.
I overstated but let's do our best to used Rothbard's definition of guilt which is the person who commits the act OR presents a very direct threat. Through that lens the guy and girl sitting in a pew aren't really representing a threat to Palestinians. Plus there is the huge Jewish lobby that influences top down into some churches. In that case the attender is going along with what the pastor says. It is a top down flow not a bottom up flow. But still people are personally responsible for what they believe. I think you get what I 'm saying.
Roger, I don't see any clear Scripture that says there is a "mantle" of "chosen" which God places on one group then another through history. What we see is God choosing in many different ways for many different purposes. He chooses individuals. He chooses families. He chooses whole nations. In a sense they (we) are chosen people in a sense. There is no one way to think about it.
DeleteIt also isn't so simple to say that Christians believed X for 1800 years and then John Nelson Darby come by. When you read some of the early church fathers like Tertullian, Irenaeus, Papias, and (maybe) Chrysostom, you see kernels of dispensational thought. It isn't well developed but it is there.
And yes God will deal with the nation of Israel. Romans 11, Daniel 12:1-4, and Zechariah 13-14 to get the start of a picture of it. Hint. Yes all come to the Father through faith in Jesus.
ATL, no worries here. Thanks for your dialogue on this.
DeleteI say the same to Roger here too. I have learned much from both of you.
"My point is that Dispensationalism or Christian Zionism within the American conservative Christian demographic is a prime driver of political support for war in the Mid-East that acts in favor Israel's interests just like Progressive Christianity of the late 19th century and its idea of a 'messianic nation' was a prime driver of support for US entry into WWI (see Richard Gamble, "The War for Righteousness")."
I agree with you. It is sad that Christianity gets distorted and shunted off into things that aren't Christian and in fact Anti-Christian.
"I think it is fine to say that the Jewish people are special in a historical sense, but Romans 11 is the same passage I would point to in order to demonstrate that the Jews are no longer (exclusively) Israel and that many, apart from the remnant of Jews who came to Christ, were cut off the tree. I think from this it follows that the promises (and curses) made to Israel by God apply to all Christians, Jew and Gentile alike and not the nation-state of Israel, a land full of unbelievers."
I agree with much of you say here too. Romans 11 does show the Gentiles being grafted into the people of God. Many Jewish people have been removed for sure. Most up until now. Verses 28-32 are interesting in how Jew and Gentile play off one another and how it all ends of up.
I would caution you about ascribing all the promises and curses to Christians. This is where I think the premillennial view does a good job. It recognizes that there are multiple promises given by God to different groups. In Galatians, Paul says that Christians become a part of the Abrahamic covenant (at least spiritually). But no other covenants are mentioned. The blessings and curses that Israel received were a part of the Mosaic covenant that came about 400 something years later. I don't think Christians are a part of that covenant because it deals with the ceremonial law and promises of wealth and health if you obey. This confusion is what the Prosperity Gospel and other charismatic denominations are based on.
Synagogues throughout Europe were mostly silent while Ukrainian Christians were persecuted, deported, and terror-starved by (overwhelmingly Jewish) Bolsheviks. Jews, especially those in the Stalin's U.S.S.R., sought to act, as institutions tend to do, in their own best interests -- narrowly defined, short-sighted interests.
ReplyDeleteThe list of "bystanders" -- those who declined to challenge the Bolsheviks in any way -- that emerges from any study of the Holodomor is long and depressing. Few organizations, in or outside Soviet Russia, did much to resist Bolshevism or aid its victims.
I want to thank you all for this wonderful conversation, and by writing this I do not mean it should end. I continue to learn so much from many of you, but this wouldn't happen if each one of you did not act with respect toward the others and toward my wishes.
ReplyDelete