These comments are taken from Jonathan Pageau’s December Q&A. The full video is here; the links below are time-stamped.
Question: What are the examples and your own thoughts on the possibility of physical violent counter-resistance response to the cancellation of the center or hierarchy itself? Does Christianity offer an argument for a violent response or is it a case of too much mental gymnastics to constitute a courageous physical defense?
I find myself amongst Christians who assume that there is no need for a physical reaction to evil, even if it is in their communities. They seem to take Jesus’s story and become absolute pacifists.
Pageau: I think it is possible for Christians to – in service of a higher purpose – to defend their home or their territory. So I believe in the Christian knight who fights for a higher king, someone who is above them, fights in the name of something above him, and then in service to those who are below who can’t defend themselves.
So far, so good.
What’s happening now is different. And what’s happening now looks way more like the story of the betrayal of Christ by Judas. From within the West – from within the Christian story – rose up a traitor who was an antichrist who then dislodged, deconstructed, and brought about the dying of the church.
This is a very interesting take, and there is no chance I would ever have thought of the comparison.
I don’t think in that case we should defend ourselves violently, in the same way that Christ didn’t. There is a mystery in dying – I don’t know what to tell you – there is a mystery in dying, there is a mystery in the martyr, and there is a mystery in what’s happening right now.
And the mystery in the martyr is the same mystery that we are seeing happen. So, as we watch Christianity wane, and as we watch it die, we have the responsibility to be seeds for the resurrection, rather than fight off…what are you going to fight off?
It’s all coming from the inside. Its like this rot that is kind of manifesting itself from within our country, from within our churches, from within our own traditions. And so, it’s not the same.
Who would we fight? Leadership of almost every institution is failing us – most importantly, as I have noted often, church leadership.
Through that, there are also attacks from the outside – which are happening, I have to admit that. But it’s mostly this kind of strange betrayal from the inside. So that’s how I see it. But I also have sympathy for someone who might disagree with me; I have sympathy for that as well.
Later, from Pageau:
I want to wish you all a Happy New Year. I know that’s strange to say with 2021 coming.
The world is changing, I think most people can feel it. Religion is coming back; the world is going to be enchanted whether we want it or not and that’s for all the good and all the bad, the light and the dark. We are going to see things in the next few years which are going to be unthinkable even now.
You might think, “that’s an easy prediction, given the last ten months.” But I recall that before 2020, Pageau knew that the year was going to be one like no other for us.
Things are going to get loopy and crazy and we are going to see things that we haven’t seen in thousands of years are going to start to manifest themselves.
I don’t know about the “thousands of years” part. Going back to the French Revolution is frightful enough.
Hopefully we will have enough people with enough sense to start to bring things to light. …So, get ready, because none of this is over; it’s just starting.
Conclusion
From Pageau:
Christ is born, so glorify Him.
“The greatest danger to Christianity is, I contend, not heresies, heterodoxies, not atheists, not profane secularism – no, but the kind of orthodoxy which is cordial drivel, mediocrity served up sweet.”
ReplyDelete—Søren Kierkegaard, Provocations: Spiritual Writings of Kierkegaard
Happy New Year BM and everyone else! I don't get to comment much these days. I would blame it on being too busy, which is true, but mostly I am too humbled by the depth and knowledge of many others commenting here. I'm not afraid of making a fool of myself, but I don't want to do it on purpose!
ReplyDeleteBoth the blogs from BM and the related comments have had a profound impact on my understanding of the world and have contributed much to the rebirth of my Christian faith. Thanks everyone for the time and effort you contribute here. It's not all just words.
For the record, I agree with Pageau. The rot is from within. There's no practical way to mount a physical defense. Maintaining and expanding a network of friends with similar beliefs is as close to being the resistance as one can get.
Thank you, Jeff. Happy New Year to you.
DeleteToo many Christians believe that turning the other cheek means that they are to allow others to walk all over them, they G-d says we are to give over whatever anyone asks for even though what is actually happening is that they aren't asking they are taking - snatching, really.
ReplyDeleteThere's an old Rabbinic Babylonian saying, "If someone comes to kill you, rise up and kill him first. " Until the present Israeli's began to see that their current enemies weren't going to listen to 'reason' and began to recognize that many living amongst them weren't real brethren or friends (there are many leftist Jews as well as leftist Christians who sell out Israel and Israeli's to the point that they even plant IED's, but that's another story) they had to stop giving 'turning the other cheek' and make plans to not allow these people to take advantage of them any longer. In some cases, yes, they had to use 'force', in other cases they utilized their courts to place monetary fines upon them and on others put them out of their country.
So, to give answer to your musing Bionic, yes there could certainly become a time when a violent answer might happen if arms happened to be taken up in this country. For G-d tells us to protect not only the flocks (animals) He provides ones with but the people (family, friends, or States, or country/countries) that He has placed us in. G-d has given governments to mankind to maintain order, thus there are armies and law enforcement. If Portland, Oregon citizens had reasoned well they would have stood up against their unjust leaders. Law enforcement would have joined them. The Antifa/Fa and BLM would have been put down quickly and the towns so-called representatives would have been stripped of their elective titles, and rightly so. However, the people have been sheep for far too long. As for Christians? They have sat in their pews doing a similar thing for hundreds of years while too many so-called pastors have taken them for a ride. So, when you speak of a betrayal from within, I wonder if it would really happen. Most of our people actually just move on to another church group. Now, they cannot. The testing is in the tight quarters. We have no where to run, no where to hide. Now we have to make a decision. Most will just sit down and wait to be told what to do. The few and the bold will make their move.....Let's hope it's done by the sound and voice of HaShem and Him alone!
deMaynerd
The rot from within... How many still observe Christmas and Easter? Both celebrations are from paganism, and found nowhere in the bible. The closest thing to Christmas is when we are told how people go out and cut down a tree, fasten it with nails so it doesn't move, and then decorate it with gold and silver. Then we are told not to do that, because it's pagan, and we are not to worship Him the way the nations worship their gods. It's like when the Israelites made the golden calf when Moses took too long on the mountain: the people decided they knew better than God how to worship him and did as they saw fit. Easter is also not in the bible: the eggs and rabbits are fertility symbols from the cult of Ostara. But what about the death and resurrection of the messiah? Isn't that Easter? No. That's Passover and Firstfruits, two feasts that are commanded in the bible. Also, every scholar admits that Saturday is the actual sabbath, so why do we still keep Sunday? It's because of Constantine, who was a sun worshiper, and people in the church today who, rather than admit they were mislead, double down on their error in order to follow as doctrine the commandments of men. In the last days, there are ravening wolves misleading the flock from within.
ReplyDelete"It's because of Constantine, who was a sun worshiper"
DeleteI think you mean a "Son" worshipper. He changed the sabbath to honor Christ's Resurrection, which, it is believed, happened on a Sunday.
I get your point though. I've not been too thrilled about the way Christmas, or the Mass in celebration of Christ's birth, has been almost totally commandeered by 'Santa Clause' and mass consumerism.
Unknown,
ReplyDeleteHow many Christians dress up their kids as ghouls, witches, and demons, then send them out to "extort" their neighbors? How many churches participate in the "Trunk or Treat" practice under the guise that they are "promoting the gospel" within their own neighborhoods? It's for the kids. Aren't they cute?
I am in agreement with you on Christmas and Easter, except that I have had to learn to compromise (for the sake of peace in my own home) with my wife on decorating a tree and hanging lights, even though I understand where the "tradition" came from. On the subject of Easter, neither her nor I will budge and do not participate in the "festivities", even though so many others do. It's for the kids. Aren't they cute? And then we wonder why they stray from the Path when they grow up enough to make up their own minds.
As far as the day of worship (rest) goes, it is my understanding that, since Jesus rose from the grave on Sunday, not the official Sabbath, we use that as the basis for our practice. Perhaps this is wrong, but the Apostle Paul did write this: "One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind." -- Romans 14:5
Final thought: On all these subjects, each one of us should be led by the Spirit of God and fully convinced in our own minds. For sure, the Spirit is able to change the way we think and act. Anything else is a dogmatic declaration of law, regardless of the target it is aimed at.
But you might very well be right.