tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post7368405144495670790..comments2024-03-28T09:59:13.754-07:00Comments on bionic mosquito: The Libertarian Movementbionic mosquitohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12002548958078731031noreply@blogger.comBlogger122125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-51952245244649472692018-02-26T15:30:37.856-08:002018-02-26T15:30:37.856-08:00ATL, for me it is the latter - and the way you put...ATL, for me it is the latter - and the way you put this has helped me clarify my thoughts (as I am in the middle of writing the aforementioned post).<br /><br />As I have mentioned, I would rather live in a neighborhood of Pat Buchanans than a neighborhood full of many (left) libertarians.bionic mosquitohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12002548958078731031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-2884723505530231532018-02-26T08:39:52.602-08:002018-02-26T08:39:52.602-08:00BM,
"What if I hold other principles or ends...BM,<br /><br />"What if I hold other principles or ends higher than freedom? Does that make me no longer libertarian?"<br /><br />I am certainly not the ultimate judge of who is or isn't libertarian, but I believe, given your statement above, it depends. <br /><br />Do you believe organized aggression is necessary to bring about the fulfillment of your highest ends, or are you simply willing to accept incomplete liberty to achieve your highest ends due to the prevailing political inclinations of those around you who share your highest ends? If you are the former, then I think the libertarian label may not apply, but if you are the latter I believe that it does.<br /><br />"What if we don't agree on what we call property and borders and how we define aggression?"<br /><br />I think here is where cultural norms fill in the gaps of the NAP and bring it from an abstract concept into a fully functioning legal order.A Texas Libertarianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02980539931923054404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-66411246271564503212018-02-26T06:48:47.946-08:002018-02-26T06:48:47.946-08:00UC,
Thanks for the resource and the summary. Sorr...UC,<br /><br />Thanks for the resource and the summary. Sorry for the delayed gratitude. This commenting system isn't a convenient for responding as say Disqus. A Texas Libertarianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02980539931923054404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-1504258886335059962018-02-25T19:42:49.477-08:002018-02-25T19:42:49.477-08:00All good avenues to go, I'll await the post to...All good avenues to go, I'll await the post to comment as I've already extended it too far in this thread.<br /><br />-MAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-67946145518937629002018-02-25T19:36:36.911-08:002018-02-25T19:36:36.911-08:00Thank you for the text. This opens up the possibi...Thank you for the text. This opens up the possibility for an interesting dialogue, one that I will start with a new post, I think.<br /><br />"Only an imbecile could ever hold that freedom is the highest or indeed the only principle or end of life."<br /><br />Which also means: Only an imbecile could ever hold that freedom is the highest principle or end of life.<br /><br />Add to this: "The libertarian agrees completely with Acton and with Meyer himself that freedom is the highest political end, not the highest end of man per se..."<br /><br />What if I hold other principles or ends higher than freedom? Does that make me no longer libertarian? <br /><br />What if achieving my ends means limiting your freedom? Actually it does, it is just a question of where and what we call property and borders, and how we define aggression. <br /><br />What if we don't agree on what we call property and borders and how we define aggression? Which one of us is no longer libertarian? Both? Neither?<br /><br />bionic mosquitohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12002548958078731031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-58888275796149702142018-02-25T18:37:58.374-08:002018-02-25T18:37:58.374-08:00H. Skip,
You may doubt that Murray Rothbard said ...H. Skip,<br /><br />You may doubt that Murray Rothbard said it, but he actually did (or typed it on his trusty typewriter at the least). I don't think it is an imbecilic statement at all. Actually, I think it is very accurate - a very good example of the older, wiser Rothbard.<br /><br />As for your second post, I don't think seeing it in the full paragraph makes it any more or less truthful. Seeing the surrounding text does give context and it helps to determine what he fully meant when writing it. But either on its own or within the whole paragraph, it is either true statement or not true. I happen to think it is true and a very wise, humble statement. If I were to attach unintended meaning to it or twist it in such a way that Rothbard did not intend, only then can it become a misconception. Neither happened in this case.<br /><br />-MAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-60787128305542269932018-02-24T18:33:35.424-08:002018-02-24T18:33:35.424-08:00Amazingly, when you place something in context it ...Amazingly, when you place something in context it is much more truthful. When you segregate it, it can become a misconception. Hskiprobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17050426539773666816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-12231048295977327572018-02-24T14:58:49.278-08:002018-02-24T14:58:49.278-08:00I doubt that Murray would have ever said something...I doubt that Murray would have ever said something so imbecilic.Hskiprobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17050426539773666816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-49795924633340959692018-02-24T11:16:21.864-08:002018-02-24T11:16:21.864-08:00https://www.lewrockwell.com/1970/01/murray-n-rothb...https://www.lewrockwell.com/1970/01/murray-n-rothbard/the-failure-called-fusionism/<br /><br />Originally paper titled "Frank S. Meyer: The Fusionist as Libertarian Manqué" by Murray Rothbard. First published in Modern Age in 1981 and then as an Occasional Paper in 1984 by the Center for Libertarian Studies. Also in George Carey's "Freedom & Virture: The Conservative/Libertarian Debate", p. 95.<br /><br />Cited in Gerard Casey's "Libertarian Anarchy", p. 54 and at the end of Chapter 1 in his "Freedom's Progress?"<br /><br />Full paragraph:<br /><br />"If the fusionist position is simply the libertarian position on freedom-and-virtue, then what of the fusionist critique of libertarianism: that it ignores virtue altogether in the pursuit of freedom (or, at least, ignores virtue insofar as it goes beyond freedom itself)? Much of this critique rests on a fundamental misunderstanding of what libertarianism is all about. Thus, Professor John P. East speaks of the traditionalist concern about contemporary libertarianism (which he, as a fusionist, seems to share): "of taking a valid point, in this case the importance of the individual and his rights, and elevating it to the first principle of life with all other considerations excluded".* Even Frank Meyer, uncharacteristically and in the heat of the ideological fray, identified libertarianism as a "libertine impulse [which] . . . raises the freedom of the individual . . . to the status of an absolute end." [4] But this is an absurd straw-man. Only an imbecile could ever hold that freedom is the highest or indeed the only principle or end of life. Freedom is necessary to, and integral with, the achievement of any of man’s ends. The libertarian agrees completely with Acton and with Meyer himself that freedom is the highest political end, not the highest end of man per se; indeed, it would be difficult to render such a position in any sense meaningful or coherent."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-18627712882996966292018-02-24T11:07:02.883-08:002018-02-24T11:07:02.883-08:00https://mises.org/sites/default/files/Frank%20S%20...https://mises.org/sites/default/files/Frank%20S%20Meyer%20The%20Fusionist%20as%20Libertarian%20Manque_2.pdf<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-23291452044944982142018-02-24T09:59:32.023-08:002018-02-24T09:59:32.023-08:00Welll...I dunno. As Christopher Morley accurately ...Welll...I dunno. As Christopher Morley accurately stated, "There is only one success---to be able to spend your life in your own way." Does that equate to "freedom"?Reddhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01084989411936052457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-72878352256190722942018-02-24T09:59:29.936-08:002018-02-24T09:59:29.936-08:00I love this line. A source?I love this line. A source?bionic mosquitohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12002548958078731031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-2643582979680035012018-02-24T09:46:56.993-08:002018-02-24T09:46:56.993-08:00Referencing this post and your Epilogue, Murray Ro...Referencing this post and your Epilogue, Murray Rothbard, Mr. Libertarian himself, said it well: "Only an imbecile could ever hold that freedom is the highest or indeed the only principle or end of life."<br /><br />-MAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-69614877616990022842018-02-16T19:45:26.518-08:002018-02-16T19:45:26.518-08:00I did not mean it that way. Empires like the ones ...I did not mean it that way. Empires like the ones mentioned allowed self-rule, to a point. I was not focusing on the idiosyncrasies of the subservient states.<br /><br />JaimeInTexashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08729407700850451849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-60900288259247980912018-02-16T16:06:44.563-08:002018-02-16T16:06:44.563-08:00H. Skip Robinson
To simplify left vs right libert...H. Skip Robinson<br /><br />To simplify left vs right libertarians it might be considered along the lines of modern liberals and traditional conservatives. Much more on this can be found in the tab at the top "Libertarians and Culture," especially within the very first link.<br /><br />As to killing a child for stealing an apple...yes, not likely to happen...but this is a long-standing thread within this community. I will explain:<br /><br />A reasonably prominent libertarian believes a property owner can exact any punishment he chooses for an aggression against his property - this is perfectly acceptable within libertarian theory according to him (of course, I disagree both as to theory and application).<br /><br />So I offered an example: what if a child picks an apple from a neighbors tree while on his way to school? Is the neighbor justified in shooting the child for "stealing" the apple?<br /><br />The answer: yes!bionic mosquitohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12002548958078731031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-30332402708112596082018-02-16T15:59:46.655-08:002018-02-16T15:59:46.655-08:00Jaime: “How is the Ottoman Empire differ from the ...Jaime: “How is the Ottoman Empire differ from the Roman or even these uSA since 1865?”<br /><br />Jaime, I offered the example in the context of an earlier comment; I did not suggest it was libertopia for the minorities.<br /><br />As to how it differed? Christian minorities (and Jews) lived in relative peace in the Ottoman Empire for hundreds of years – pretty good compared to the peace under the US Constitution that didn’t event last four score and seven years. With this said, being a minority population is rarely the safest path to take.<br /><br />Basically it took white (so-called) Christians from Britain, France and then the USA to ensure the destruction of the Christian populations in these Muslim countries. They are still at it.<br />bionic mosquitohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12002548958078731031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-31920147939657201262018-02-16T15:54:32.828-08:002018-02-16T15:54:32.828-08:00ATL: “I thought it was the 'progressive' Y...ATL: “I thought it was the 'progressive' Young Turks that began the purge of the Armenian Christian minority and not the Ottoman monarchy.”<br /><br />The Ottoman dynasty under the Sultan lasted until 1922. Yes, the Young Turks were leaders during the Armenian Genocide, but not during other destructive actions against minorities toward the end of the 19th century or after the Great War.<br />bionic mosquitohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12002548958078731031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-60954743114075867222018-02-16T13:05:35.393-08:002018-02-16T13:05:35.393-08:00>Yea, they used the force of the sword and slav...>Yea, they used the force of the sword and slavery so yea it was great for the ruling oligarchy. <br /><br />And who was better off? Slaves that the British bought, or slaves (or even freemen!) that remained in Africa?<br /><br /><br /><br />>Additionally it was Boston Bay Colony who was by that time controlled by the Crown. <br /><br /><br />Colonists had enormous powers of self-government.<br /><br /><br /><br />>You sound like your came from Tory lineage. <br /><br />Neither Whig, nor Torry.<br /><br /><br />>being persecuted for being separatists against the Church of England<br /><br />They were persecuted for murdering the king, and instituting the red terror, in the process banning holidays, theatere, pubs, sports, music, ... (the list goes on).<br /><br /><br /><br />>anti-government<br /><br />They weren't anti-government in an abstract (like libertarians are). They were anti-not-controlled-by-them-government. They were totally fine with establishing totalitarian theocracy for themselves, however.<br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14387061181175539546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-14082165559457827922018-02-16T12:45:40.071-08:002018-02-16T12:45:40.071-08:00ATL,
Sorry forgot to provide you with the source ...ATL,<br /><br />Sorry forgot to provide you with the source you asked for. See Solzhenitsyn's 200 Years Together: https://track5.mixtape.moe/svjjjx.pdf<br /><br />That would be the place to start but also look at key NKVD figures like Genrikh Grigoryevich Yagoda. Basically the nutshell story of Jews and the USSR is that Jews dominated the ranks of international communism, killed the tsar, and came to dominate the NKVD. It not really possible to understand the "anti-Semitism" of the 1933 revolution without taking into account the fact that key Germans were well aware of what was going on in the east and the Jewish culpability in it. However Stalin out played Trotsky (Jew) and eventually started executing his former agents for Zionism. This led to a flight of Jews from the USSR to America and Israel- and that's where neo-conservatism comes from.Unhappy Conservative (2.0)https://www.blogger.com/profile/05647440445427537430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-24402114191593290112018-02-16T12:17:47.098-08:002018-02-16T12:17:47.098-08:00Tell me the difference between left and right libe...Tell me the difference between left and right libertarian. I agree with you on the sexual abuse issue. Not even a parent has the right to harm or coerce a child. Since the child cannot protect them selves, everyone has the right to do it on their behalf.<br /><br />In self defence, it is hard to determine the level or force needed if the person has a gun. You bring up on issue that would not like happen, killing a child who steals an apply, as a starting point. Hskiprobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17050426539773666816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-84727107485097975132018-02-16T12:05:19.262-08:002018-02-16T12:05:19.262-08:00How is the Ottoman Empire differ from the Roman or...How is the Ottoman Empire differ from the Roman or even these uSA since 1865?<br />As long as the subdivisions (states,estados,millets,counties,cities) do not overstep their boundaries they can pass all the Laws they wish.<br />The key to any agreement is the explicit text indicating the power by any party to leave. Leaving things implicit ... well, ask us in the South.JaimeInTexashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08729407700850451849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-11361999364342041072018-02-16T11:02:25.548-08:002018-02-16T11:02:25.548-08:00The law of the victim governs in disputes between ...The law of the victim governs in disputes between different law groups. That's a wonderful norm.<br /><br />"the rulers (Ottoman Turks) decided purging the minorities was the right answer. Deadly for millions."<br /><br />I thought it was the 'progressive' Young Turks that began the purge of the Armenian Christian minority and not the Ottoman monarchy.<br /><br />"I think the Swiss have the best answer in the modern world."<br /><br />There is much to admire about the Swiss, both culturally and politically. I wonder if it was a combination of the Protestant principle of sphere sovereignty and the Catholic principle of subsidiarity that played the largest part in guiding the formation of the highly federalized and decentralized Swiss government.A Texas Libertarianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02980539931923054404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-34898768329495573062018-02-16T10:58:24.754-08:002018-02-16T10:58:24.754-08:00"This comes with the added benefit of ridding..."This comes with the added benefit of ridding from my polity the whites I want to be rid of."<br /><br />I lol'd over this comment.Nick Badalamentihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14015961786370759940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-11455732977108626682018-02-16T09:47:12.193-08:002018-02-16T09:47:12.193-08:00Is that what they teach today. You sound like your...Is that what they teach today. You sound like your came from Tory lineage. Actually John Robinson, the Pastor, William Brewster the Church leader and their congregation escaped to Holland after being persecuted for being separatists against the Church of England. The Separatists were also anti-government as the church and state were in collusion at the time. From Holland, they freely left to Plymouth under the Mayflower compact, there governing document. Hskiprobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17050426539773666816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-13939992340034901572018-02-16T09:35:02.095-08:002018-02-16T09:35:02.095-08:00Yea, they used the force of the sword and slavery ...Yea, they used the force of the sword and slavery so yea it was great for the ruling oligarchy. <br /><br />Additionally it was Boston Bay Colony who was by that time controlled by the Crown. <br /><br />I know, they don't teach us this in the text and history books. I didn't know either until I got involved in my own geneology research. Hskiprobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17050426539773666816noreply@blogger.com