tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post7149708970198849805..comments2024-03-28T09:59:13.754-07:00Comments on bionic mosquito: Wenzel Develops Theory That Could Never Survive Practicebionic mosquitohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12002548958078731031noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-73957163763994043532016-09-07T09:59:03.759-07:002016-09-07T09:59:03.759-07:00Hmm, an "eye for an eye" comes to mind.....Hmm, an "eye for an eye" comes to mind...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-82137437461718052472016-01-21T18:35:35.022-08:002016-01-21T18:35:35.022-08:00Seems you have your reply...
Bob grasps this mate...Seems you have your reply...<br /><br />Bob grasps this material loosely at best. His idea of the NAP can only work in the world of robots. He doesn't seem to grasp the human aspect of society, the part where freedom implies difference of opinion. The park bench money test is another frustrating example of this. Perhaps he needs to hear his God, Rothbard speak on theory and practice:<br /><br />"In the first place, we must challenge the very idea of a radical separation between something that is "true in theory" but "not valid in practice." If a theory is correct, then it does work in practice; if it does not work in practice, then it is a bad theory. The common separation between theory and practice is an artificial and fallacious one." ~ from "Egalitarianism as a Revolt Against Nature"<br /><br />His theory will most definitely never be proven valid in practice.P Szarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09298180391605451618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-78365582273244731142016-01-21T09:35:33.124-08:002016-01-21T09:35:33.124-08:00Well, BM, it is indeed your time to waste.
Howev...Well, BM, it is indeed your time to waste. <br /><br />However, if you ever want to move on from all of the time wasting, and instead explore practical ideas to help you to live a freer life _now_, regardless of what happens to the world, maybe get in contact with me.<br /><br />Regards, onebornfree<br />Personal Freedom Consulting<br />onebornfreeatyahoodotcomOnebornfreehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17865185718738348312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-65161530774514857902016-01-21T02:06:24.756-08:002016-01-21T02:06:24.756-08:00I have just realized that when you combine Wenzel&...I have just realized that when you combine Wenzel's theory of Intellectual Property and his Private Property Society together, intellectual property holders could execute people that download music or TV shows. Since there is no due process they don't even need proof.<br /><br />Seriously, voodoo libertarianism is a thing.Matt@Occidentalism.orghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02395220402283030311noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-29395375605124070732016-01-20T20:09:53.332-08:002016-01-20T20:09:53.332-08:00I had a comment written out questioning the validi...I had a comment written out questioning the validity of the claim that voluntarily consenting to these rules would be a violation of the NAP.<br /><br />I'd like you to know that by merit of you raising this point, it gave me a moment to pause, consider, and realize that you very well could be right.<br /><br />Thank you<br />Black Flaghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04264200450145227142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-31056439389485332022016-01-20T19:10:07.721-08:002016-01-20T19:10:07.721-08:00Thank-you very much for your thoughtful reply. Thank-you very much for your thoughtful reply. gpondhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01013837189187920036noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-63214671582640106832016-01-20T18:42:45.259-08:002016-01-20T18:42:45.259-08:00There is a post at Target Liberty in reply to BM s...There is a post at Target Liberty in reply to BM specifically and it is a complete non-answer. Voodoo libertarianism. Matt@Occidentalism.orghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02395220402283030311noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-21035701546801835112016-01-20T18:09:49.675-08:002016-01-20T18:09:49.675-08:00gpond
Did I say anything about compulsory governm...gpond<br /><br />Did I say anything about compulsory government? Please don't do what others are doing on this subject.<br /><br />Yes, it is subjective; no, I do not know where the line is. There is, however, a point where punishment crosses that line and becomes the initiation of aggression.<br /><br />If we libertarians cannot say that shooting a child for stealing an apple crosses that line, libertarianism is a dead philosophy.<br /><br />Did I say that "managing" this (for lack of a better term) requires compulsory government? Where?bionic mosquitohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12002548958078731031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-41892008512387434882016-01-20T18:04:46.961-08:002016-01-20T18:04:46.961-08:00gpond, we have already established that different ...gpond, we have already established that different cultures have different punishments. In Muslim countries the hand of the thief is removed, and this penalty is widely accepted as a just punishment. Why so harsh? Possibly because in these cultures any punishment less than removing the hand lacks the power to discourage theft. We punish differently in our culture but it is appropriate for our mentality and conditions. <br /><br />Robert Wenzel said the property owner had an absolute right to determine and carry out the punishment (yeah, due process doesn't exist either - back to barbarism). Gpond, if you can accept that the farmer can choose to kill a child, let's say 8 years old for arguments sake, as punishment because the property owner had the right to determine the punishment, then what if if the farmer decided that he would rather have sex with the child as punishment instead? In the principle given by RW there shouldn't be any problem with it. I have asked RW a number of times about it but he keeps on dodging the question by saying it couldn't happen in his Private Property Society. <br /><br />So the question here is not the severity of the punishment but the absolute authority of a property owner to decide the punishment no matter what it is. The easiest way to work it out for yourself is asking yourself if a farmer could have sex with a child as punishment for stealing an apple. If the answer is no then you disagree with RW. Matt@Occidentalism.orghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02395220402283030311noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-53909195087648116942016-01-20T16:14:11.923-08:002016-01-20T16:14:11.923-08:00You say it violates the NAP. Where is the line? ...You say it violates the NAP. Where is the line? Is it objective? Or is it the subjective: I know it when I see it? Does any punishment at all violate the NAP? A spanking? A talking-to? Grounded? Prison for 3 months? Lose a hand? <br /><br />This is difficult stuff, for me at least. I don't see it as settled in any regard. Would I find it abhorrent? Yes, I would. <br /><br />Do we expect an AnCap society to be able to work it out to their own satisfaction without compulsory government? <br /><br />I do. <br />gpondhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01013837189187920036noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-49666259261697130652016-01-20T16:08:44.025-08:002016-01-20T16:08:44.025-08:00"...what if they did accept it?"
It rem..."...what if they did accept it?"<br /><br />It remains a violation of the NAP.<br /><br />"Should I join forces and intervene?"<br /><br />We face this possibility today and every day. There are many violations of the NAP around us. We each decide to intervene in a manner of our choosing or not (we have no duty to intervene).<br />bionic mosquitohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12002548958078731031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-75655719942869933572016-01-20T16:02:12.655-08:002016-01-20T16:02:12.655-08:00BM: "I cannot say what is proper punishment f...BM: "I cannot say what is proper punishment for violation X in every society in every situation. No one can. Or should."<br /><br />I applaud you!<br /><br />BM: "And I know it is wrong practically speaking because such a society could never maintain its "libertarian-ness" if that's a word."<br /><br />But what if they did accept it? A trespass and a theft certainly violate the NAP. What if that culture accepted harsh punishments in that case - not YOU - but that culture? Another poster mentioned the situation where food is scarce. I don't specifically posit that case, but rather that there are cases we haven't considered. Including that one, and perhaps a semi-infinite (oxymoron alert!) number of other cases. <br /><br />By saying all of this, all I am doing is trying to tease things out. To tease thinking out. You know it when you see it. What if others don't? Free market? Or your "know it when you see it"? Or *my* "know it when I see it?" <br /><br />Should I join forces and intervene? [Just having some thought-provoked fun here, and stretching a little.]<br /><br />gpondhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01013837189187920036noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-35027154588852575422016-01-20T15:50:37.929-08:002016-01-20T15:50:37.929-08:00gpond, an emphatic "yes, but..."
I cann...gpond, an emphatic "yes, but..."<br /><br />I cannot say what is proper punishment for violation X in every society in every situation. No one can. Or should.<br /><br />But I can say what is a wrong punishment. When this came up with Wenzel whenever - several months, a year ago, whatever - I believe I was the one who tossed out the example of the child and the apple. I did it for a reason.<br /><br />I thought such an egregious example would put a stop to this idea that Wenzel is advocating.<br /><br />So I cannot (nor should not nor will not) say what is the right punishment for violation X. But I know a wrong one when I see it. <br /><br />And I know it is wrong in principle because it violates the NAP.<br /><br />And I know it is wrong practically speaking because such a society could never maintain its "libertarian-ness" if that's a word.bionic mosquitohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12002548958078731031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-28105541078987883592016-01-20T15:45:01.095-08:002016-01-20T15:45:01.095-08:00Patrick, thank you for the kind feedback regarding...Patrick, thank you for the kind feedback regarding my writing.<br /><br />I am willing to take one more run at him on this topic once he replies. I am not expecting it will do any good with him - he is in way too deep on this one. However, it will give me a chance to more succinctly organize my thoughts.bionic mosquitohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12002548958078731031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-18674678409539776922016-01-20T15:39:05.119-08:002016-01-20T15:39:05.119-08:00Matt
I do not fear a nail in the coffin. There i...Matt<br /><br />I do not fear a nail in the coffin. There is and always will be value in the proposition of the non-aggression principle grounded in private property.<br /><br />The entire school of work is, what, 50 years old if you start with Rothbard, or a few hundred years old if you want to start with classical liberals.<br /><br />Christianity is 2000 years old, and the debates about doctrine rage. Yet, Christianity isn't dead.<br /><br />This, too, shall pass.bionic mosquitohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12002548958078731031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-22506862270965886832016-01-20T15:38:54.062-08:002016-01-20T15:38:54.062-08:00To be more clear, my post above is not intended as...To be more clear, my post above is not intended as a complaint against BM. I named the names I meant. gpondhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01013837189187920036noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-38584657550741889232016-01-20T15:29:08.756-08:002016-01-20T15:29:08.756-08:00We claim to support the idea that the free market ...We claim to support the idea that the free market would provide appropriate adjudication (including punishment as needed) for some theoretical society that adopted AnCap. [And I support that, to be clear.]<br /> <br />Then we flame-war back and forth over what the *exact* punishment would be with acute pinpoint specificity. As if the developing free market would not figure it out. When we do that we attempt to become *the* central planner with the exactly right plan. <br /><br />I do waste my time reading and thinking about these things. But that doesn't make it *not* a kind of waste of time. And I don't see what it contributes, trying to get too specific about what an AnCap society would "choose", to the overall longterm project towards liberty. <br /><br />The point of AnCap society is that we indeed trust that they will work it out, given a free market and lack of coercion.<br /><br />To name names, Rothbard was guilty of over-specificity. Block does it. Possibly Wenzel, too. Is the in-fighting necessary?<br /><br />If the free market exists alongside a culture, who are we to pre-specify what they decide is right? Isn't that the whole point? NAP plus property rights. The rest is a kind of noise that we need not speculate upon with excess specificity. Trust the free market to eventually work it out? Yes, or No? gpondhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01013837189187920036noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-44871489461637901942016-01-20T14:00:40.054-08:002016-01-20T14:00:40.054-08:00Wenzel has never impressed me. Quite the opposite...Wenzel has never impressed me. Quite the opposite. I found EPJ entertaining for a couple months, until I listened to this intellectual property debate with Kinsella. It's downright embarrassing for Wenzel. Kinsella is a good sport for sticking it out as long as he does. A painful experience. Just jump around a few minutes at a time. No need to hear the whole thing. I lost respect for Wenzel as a thinker and as a "grown-up" listening to this.<br /><br />Note the title: "Kinsella Crushed! -- Robert Wenzel Debates IP with Stephan Kinsella"<br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNZujsBZMBQ<br /><br />I follow your blog, because I've learned a lot and seen a lot of nuanced perspectives on issues I thought were cut and dry. But frankly, I think you may be wasting your time thinking you can debate or engage any new territory with RW. He struggles to grasp how all this theoretical work still has to function in the real world, hence the culture/government distinction he doesn't grasp. P Szarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09298180391605451618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-86963725155304550982016-01-20T13:59:18.322-08:002016-01-20T13:59:18.322-08:00I actually went a looooong way to make my point to...I actually went a looooong way to make my point to the commenter in question in that link you posted...I promised myself I would never go that far again...lol<br /><br />I wish I could get my time back as I'm not sure it mattered. Can't we just pretend that link doesn't exist? It's like ripping off an old scab for me.<br /><br />:)<br />Nick Badalamentihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14015961786370759940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-85995479099050317092016-01-20T13:34:17.126-08:002016-01-20T13:34:17.126-08:00BM, I pointed out this thread because you have eng...BM, I pointed out this thread because you have engaged one of those commenters in the current thread at Target Liberty. So it is useful to know where he is coming from if only to ignore him. <br /><br />I agree with you that it is Wenzel matters. Libertarianism is already associated with all sorts of degeneracy in the public mind. Adding killing kids to that would be the nail in the coffin. Matt@Occidentalism.orghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02395220402283030311noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-90303426085684761042016-01-20T13:11:27.847-08:002016-01-20T13:11:27.847-08:00Matt
I don't get hung up an the commenters, u...Matt<br /><br />I don't get hung up an the commenters, unless they have some credibility in the libertarian community. Who knows who they are? Certainly there are many who are willing to smear the libertarian name.<br /><br />I do make a point to go after the work of known libertarians who peddle ideas in contraction to the simplicity of the NAP.<br /><br />So in this current conversation, the commenters matter little. Wenzel matters.<br /><br />In the meantime, I will await his promised reply to this post.bionic mosquitohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12002548958078731031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-4244562921407894472016-01-20T13:05:40.773-08:002016-01-20T13:05:40.773-08:00It is our time to waste.It is our time to waste.bionic mosquitohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12002548958078731031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-40623725257188537202016-01-20T12:10:05.916-08:002016-01-20T12:10:05.916-08:00I am starting to think that many so called liberta...I am starting to think that many so called libertarians are actually clinically autistic and their belief on an NAP (of sorts) results from them not knowing the difference between right and wrong. The result them having very strange ideas about the NAP or the applications of the NAP. For example, someone that acts as a spotter for a murderer by pointing out locations of potential victims is not violating the NAP, just exercising free speech! <br /><br />Once you realize where their thought processes are coming from you realize why they can't grasp the problem with a farmer murdering a child for retrieving a ball from the farmers front yard. <br /><br />Read the comments in this other target liberty thread and see for yourself. These guys are literally autistic. <br /><br />http://www.targetliberty.com/2014/10/walter-block-defends-his-decision-to.html?Matt@Occidentalism.orghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02395220402283030311noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-6469450120036128392016-01-20T10:59:47.784-08:002016-01-20T10:59:47.784-08:00Pardon me for thinking [illegal?] thoughts here, b...Pardon me for thinking [illegal?] thoughts here, but I have never understood the endless, repetitive, "libertarian" individuals preoccupation with constantly fantasizing about their particular vision for a "libertarian society", in their entirely imaginary, perfect world in the future where everyone has suddenly, mysteriously been persuaded that the personal "libertarian vision" of any particular fantasizer is "the way to go" . <br /><br />It makes no sense, and is a waste of the individuals time, as far as I can see. <br /><br />That time could be more productively used by the individual to try to find ways to live a freer life in the world _as_it_is_ now_, instead of waiting for a day that will never come when there is some sort of imaginary perfect "libertarian" society/community, [however defined/imagined], when every one is supposedly free according to a particular fantasists own personal "libertarian" standards.<br /><br />But I guess I'm just not "libertarian" enough. :-)<br /><br />Regards, onebornfree<br />Personal Freedom Consulting<br />onebornfreeatyahoodotcomOnebornfreehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17865185718738348312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-87035372888255039392016-01-19T22:19:00.428-08:002016-01-19T22:19:00.428-08:00You are missing the point. What we are talking abo...You are missing the point. What we are talking about is the property owner being able to choose any penalty or retributive measure for any offence. Presumably under a PPS a kid that trespasses on a property to retrieve a ball could be executed at the discretion of the property owner. Instead of killing someone for stealing or trespassing, the property owner may decide to have sex with the thief instead. Matt@Occidentalism.orghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02395220402283030311noreply@blogger.com