tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post3908308976593560173..comments2024-03-18T11:28:36.841-07:00Comments on bionic mosquito: Open Bordersbionic mosquitohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12002548958078731031noreply@blogger.comBlogger81125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-42618505623934409442018-11-04T11:35:18.608-08:002018-11-04T11:35:18.608-08:00Exploited? Maybe on this earth. I have other con...Exploited? Maybe on this earth. I have other concerns. Anyway, absent my willingness to go on a suicide mission, exploitation it is.<br /><br />:-)<br /><br />As to finding a wealthy libertarian that I can live off of, send any you have my way.bionic mosquitohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12002548958078731031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-24517600535745104122018-11-04T11:26:40.114-08:002018-11-04T11:26:40.114-08:00That Rothbard must be an irrational libertarian. ...That Rothbard must be an irrational libertarian. Just ask that Scott what's-his-name.bionic mosquitohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12002548958078731031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-79669376646596689352018-11-04T11:13:04.408-08:002018-11-04T11:13:04.408-08:00He infers that which I have never implied; and in ...He infers that which I have never implied; and in fact have written contrary to his inference. He complains that I have created an either / or scenario, when I have offered other alternatives.<br /><br />He cites Jacob Hornberger as rational, yet shows his stripes as he argues against the same strawmen that JH creates. Rational is as rational does, I guess.<br /><br />Peg, yes, you might expect such simple statements could be easily refuted... if there was a refutation to be had. Instead of taking the simple meaning, he punches at ghosts. <br /><br />With libertarians such as these, it is fine with me to be labeled "so-called." I would prefer not to be tarnished by the same brush. Nor will I respond, as other "rational" libertarians have demonstrated that they cannot reply in cogent manners on this topic.<br /><br />If they would just get on with it and call it a man-made religion we could be done discussing this from a libertarian point of view.bionic mosquitohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12002548958078731031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-68008906859144758952018-11-04T08:25:26.592-08:002018-11-04T08:25:26.592-08:00Slight revision: It might have been helpful if Sco...Slight revision: It might have been helpful if Scott Lazarowitz had stated just where he believed Bionic was off-base in pointing out that as long as there are state borders, it will be the state itself who determines who gets in and who gets out. Is that not self-evident? Peg in OregonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-48808737265612284832018-11-03T02:33:03.743-07:002018-11-03T02:33:03.743-07:00Whoops, the previous post should be addressed to B...Whoops, the previous post should be addressed to BM, not ATL!<br /><br />If the admin can fix that, then he can remove this comment ;-)Rienhttp://overbeterleven.nlnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-5366392425505416142018-11-03T02:30:55.226-07:002018-11-03T02:30:55.226-07:00ATL: "I don't want war."
And thus y...ATL: "I don't want war."<br /><br />And thus you can be exploited...<br /><br />Did I read the next line on this board?: A slave is someone who waits for somebody else to free him.<br /><br />While doing the dishes this morning I found myself thinking" Most libertarians seem to be relatively intelligent 1-2 deviations above normal, but almost all libertarians also seem not very successful in life. Though there are a few that live successfully of other libertarians. All in all, how many libertarians catch on to libertarianism because they feel wronged, blame the govt, and want somebody else to "free" them?<br /><br /><br />PS: I am not advocating violence!!! I am advocating understanding of self and society. That in itself can set you 'free'. Even from libertarianism.Rienhttp://overbeterleven.nlnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-3623327551285456782018-11-03T02:24:23.169-07:002018-11-03T02:24:23.169-07:00Eric: Ar you trying to save democracy? LOL.
But y...Eric: Ar you trying to save democracy? LOL.<br /><br />But yes, that is the only way to save it.<br />The only way to get there however is a complete and utter collapse of the system.... and then hope that there are enough sane people around to institute it. Doubtful at best.Rienhttp://overbeterleven.nlnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-30525713570316545302018-11-02T05:09:35.828-07:002018-11-02T05:09:35.828-07:00Hi ATL,
Sorry for the interruption. It's a ...Hi ATL, <br /><br />Sorry for the interruption. It's a fine excerpt you link to though it's open to (mis)interpretation by leftists (won't bother to call them left-libertarians). The entire article by Rothbard (the Elder) is even better.<br /><br />Let me ask you something: Do you remenber the exchange between yourself and one "Just A Citizen" in the comments section of the LvMI Salerno article some time ago?<br />I was cheering on the both of you then, but didn't upvote at the time (corrected that grave injustice right away of course). Wonderful and open discussion, until some Lincolnite was allowed to derail the thing.<br /><br />It's worth revisiting great articles and threads like those from time to time. See if your views still hold or have perhaps evolved.<br /><br />https://mises.org/wire/mises-nationalism-right-self-determination-and-problem-immigration#comment-3230057731<br /><br />The Libertarian dilemma: <br /><br /><i>Once you have established your "culture" of Libertarian values, you cannot protect it from invasion by "cultures" who do not share it with you.</i><br /><br />Camp of the Saints problem for Libertopia?<br /><br />Cheers from Dutchystan near the North Sea,<br />-Sag.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-9201807318866369462018-11-01T14:28:04.129-07:002018-11-01T14:28:04.129-07:00Here's Rothbard on immigration and voting:
A ...Here's Rothbard on immigration and voting:<br /><br /><a href="https://mises.org/wire/libertarian-critique-birthright-citizenship-1" rel="nofollow">A Libertarian Critique of Birthright Citizenship </a><br /><br />"t is also important to rethink the entire concept and function of voting. Should anyone have a "right" to vote? Rose Wilder Lane, the mid-twentieth century U.S. libertarian theorist, was once asked if she believed in womens' suffrage. "No," she replied, "and I'm against male suffrage as well.""A Texas Libertarianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02980539931923054404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-71597952265809867922018-11-01T02:01:58.370-07:002018-11-01T02:01:58.370-07:00Well that didn't take long. This open borders ...Well that didn't take long. This open borders article by a certain "Scott" Lazarowitz a blogger also present on the LewRockwell site:<br /><br />http://scottlazarowitz.org/blog/2018/10/the-irrational-vs-the-rational-of-libertarians/<br /><br />-Sag.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-31965839319625829982018-10-31T03:09:45.099-07:002018-10-31T03:09:45.099-07:00Hi Peg,
With regard to both the book you mentio...Hi Peg, <br /><br />With regard to both the book you mention and the title of this topic, I can't resist a quote from Murray Rothbard:<br /><br /><i>"Open Borders, or the Camp-of-the-Saints Problem<br /><br />[...] A totally privatized country would be as "closed" as the particular inhabitants and property owners desire. It seems clear, then, that the regime of open borders that exists de facto in the U.S. really amounts to a compulsory opening by the central state, the state in charge of all streets and public land areas, and does not genuinely reflect the wishes of the proprietors."</i><br /><br />Open borders = compulsory opening by the central state. Says it all.<br /><br />Cheers from across the Atlantic,<br />-Sag.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-54604677318394705222018-10-29T08:44:49.164-07:002018-10-29T08:44:49.164-07:00"I cannot for the life of me imagine that the..."I cannot for the life of me imagine that the owners of roads would give a damn where their customers were born." - Greg<br /><br />Well, they may care if these customers trash their property, don't pay for the use of it, drive dangerously causing traffic accidents without any form of insurance or intention to restitute victims. They may care if they gather in gigantic crowds for long pilgrimages on foot across their property, using their property inappropriately, without paying and diminishing the utility and safety of all the paying customers. Yes, these can all be predictable behaviors based on culture, and to the extent an ethnicity aligns culturally, ethnicity as well.<br /><br />You're saying if your life depended on it, you couldn't think of one of the above problems?<br /><br />"No shoes, no shirt, so service" - BM<br /><br />Lol. Where I grew up, this was on the front door of nearly every establishment.<br /><br />"By this logic, every laissez-faire policy would be just another "centrally-planned, state-enforced policy."" - Greg<br /><br />I think to some extent you are correct here. And this is why limited governments can often be the most dangerous as Hoppe has shown in his critique of American history. They are the most dangerous because of the wealth and capital infrastructure they accumulate during their periods of laissez faire policy - wealth and capital that they may later descend upon to direct toward the ends of war and conquest.<br /><br />I think that we should pursue laissez faire policies, however, because this will create the most amount of decentralized wealth in opposition to the state. It is important to note, however, that libertarianism doesn't necessarily mean laissez faire trade. It means consensual law. This means each property owner is free to become a member of a law association which prohibits trade with certain outside groups. It also means property owners can prohibit the transport of certain goods across their property.A Texas Libertarianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02980539931923054404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-18457430711764019142018-10-28T10:27:17.775-07:002018-10-28T10:27:17.775-07:00Political states are essentially monopoly corporat...Political states are essentially monopoly corporations with the power to force 'customers' to purchase their 'services'. The only way such a customer can exert consumer control over such a corporation is to flee the one and to take his chances with another. This consumer discipline of state monopoly corporations actually worked to great effect in medieval Europe. States were quite small e.g. the city state - so it was easy to walk out of one and into another. This forced city states to be competitive in terms of tax and regulatory policy. This competitiveness kept political intervention low - the conditions necessary for the fantastic technological and economic growth of Europe aka Western Civilization.<br />Viewed from the broad perspective of consumer choice, immigration - and particularly emigration - are the only available means for exerting control over political power. Victorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12985538497409080098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-24891399245502040302018-10-28T08:48:34.367-07:002018-10-28T08:48:34.367-07:00Wrong, wrong and wrong. Other than that, you are ...Wrong, wrong and wrong. Other than that, you are right.<br /><br />Take the drug war. The state merely has to eliminate laws regarding the non-violent use of drugs. No other action is necessary to make this libertarian. Contrary to an open borders policy, which requires the state to take two actions: open the border and fully respect private property.<br /><br />Walter Block has already conceded this point, albeit he hasn't changed his view on open borders:<br /><br />http://bionicmosquito.blogspot.com/2017/06/block-and-bionic-duke-it-out.html <br /><br />Chinese goods don't vote, don't go to public school, don't utilize any assets that I have paid for and that they have not. Isn't this obvious to you?<br /><br />As to what you can or can't imagine an owner doing (who made you king?), you are arguing a position I have never taken. Private owners set the conditions under which others may enter their property.<br /><br />No shoes, no shirt, so service. Can you imagine that?bionic mosquitohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12002548958078731031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-67333400304682039362018-10-28T07:36:57.523-07:002018-10-28T07:36:57.523-07:00"To make my view clear: open borders is not a..."To make my view clear: open borders is not a libertarian position in a world of state borders. Every border “policy” is a centrally-planned, state-enforced policy. There is nothing “libertarian” about this."<br /><br />By this logic, every laissez-faire policy would be just another "centrally-planned, state-enforced policy." So forget free trade, reduced regulations, and an end to the drug war. This strikes me as patently absurd. How is keeping out immigrants any different from keeping out cheap Chinese crap and dangerous drugs? If it is no different then throw libertarianism out the window.<br /><br />"Further, open borders is not a libertarian position in a fully libertarian world. As all property would be privately owned, each “border” would be managed in accordance with the wishes of the property owner. One can only derive “managed borders” from the non-aggression principle."<br /><br />I don't know what type of world of private property you envision, but when I think of a world of private ownership of roads and other currently publicly owned property, I cannot for the life of me imagine that the owners of roads would give a damn where their customers were born. The same goes for most landlords, property sellers, and employers. I suppose you could imagine a world of gated cities that would restrict access like some kind of draconian HOA, but I can't imagine too many people voluntarily donning such a straight jacket. It is common even now to hear complaints about overly controlling HOAs.<br />Greg Worrelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-57433851767672813812018-10-28T05:13:54.825-07:002018-10-28T05:13:54.825-07:00Touché.Touché.Carloshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03504618827662424451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-53796419055274720982018-10-28T05:09:15.168-07:002018-10-28T05:09:15.168-07:00Think about economic conditions in the US after th...Think about economic conditions in the US after the 2008 meltdown. Think about job opportunities, especially in the service and construction sectors where many/most illegal immigrants find work. During and after an economic collapse will job opportunities be better...or worse?<br /><br />Your theory is obviously counter-intuitive. And the facts support my assertions as well as what we witnessed in South America. Here are a couple of fact-based statistics for your consideration:<br /><br />1. [excerpted from https://www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2015/jul/28/donald-trump/donald-trump-says-number-illegal-immigrants-30-mil/] The U.S. Department of Homeland Security comes up with an estimate of the number of illegal immigrants each year, and its most recent estimate was 11.4 million unauthorized immigrants as of January 2012. That includes those who entered the United States illegally and those who overstayed their visas.<br /><br />According to the department’s estimates, <strong>the number of illegal immigrants peaked around 12 million in 2007 and has gradually declined to closer to 11 million.</strong><br /><br />2. [excerpted from http://latinalista.com/palabrafinal/immigration/china-india-overtake-mexico-as-top-source-of-immigrants-to-the-u-s] Mexico no longer occupies the top post as the largest provider of immigrants to the United States, according a 2013 U.S. Census Bureau project published earlier this month. <br /><br />Of the 1.2 million recent immigrants counted in 2013, China and India were the top two immigrant-sending countries with 147,000 and 129,000 immigrants, respectively. Mexican immigrants numbered 125,000 that year...<br /><br />Census Bureau demographer Eric Jensen wrote that the new immigration flow may affect the ethnic and racial makeup of the country:<br /><br /> While Hispanics are still the largest racial or ethnic minority group, a larger percentage of the Asian population was foreign-born (65.4) compared with the Hispanic population (35.2) in 2013. Given the numbers above, it is likely that the contribution of immigration to overall population growth will be greater for Asians than for Hispanics.<br /><br />Immigration Policy Institute analysts Muzaffar Chishti and Faye Hipsman write that <strong>the decrease in Mexican immigrants may be a result of the Great Recession of 2008</strong> and that the U.S. has increased attention to the border, making it more difficult for unauthorized migrants to cross into the country.<br /><br />On top of that, Chishti and Hipsman point to a generational split between the current Mexican population and the one of the early '90s.<br /><br /> The Mexican economy has meanwhile strengthened and stabilized in recent years, creating new job opportunities. And the country has greatly expanded its educational system, providing young Mexicans who want to improve their lives with viable alternatives to migrating north.<br /><br />3. [Table at https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/assets/documents/2017-Dec/BP%20Total%20Apps%2C%20Mexico%2C%20OTM%20FY2000-FY2017.pdf] The facts show that CBP apprehensions peaked in 2000, declined the following four years, started to increase slightly leading up to the crash in 2007-2008 and has declined steadily ever since.<br /><br /><i>I can't argue what you saw or just think you saw in South America, but the immigrants were hardly coming from just there. Take the note of the current Central American caravan.</i><br /><br />One caravan does not a trend make. I prefer facts to sensationalized news.<br /> Carloshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03504618827662424451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-5575055185990077412018-10-27T22:56:24.569-07:002018-10-27T22:56:24.569-07:00"Jonathan argues that collapse brings tighter..."Jonathan argues that collapse brings tighter government controls, more immigrants ("we'd be flooded with even more immigrants"), higher taxes and higher social costs related to supporting the tsunami of new immigrants. The collapse of 2008 offers indisputable proof of the converse, i.e, the 2008 collapse caused a huge exodus of foreign immigrants from the US back to their countries of origin."<br /><br />UTTER, UTTER nonsense. We've seen MORE immigration into the U.S. since 2008, not less. That is a fact that in inarguable.<br /><br />"We certainly witnessed that phenomenon here in South America."<br /><br />I can't argue what you saw or just think you saw in South America, but the immigrants were hardly coming from just there. Take the note of the current Central American caravan.Jonathan Mailerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03208874911279020515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-47423254303191662682018-10-27T21:46:21.366-07:002018-10-27T21:46:21.366-07:00Also on LRC is a great Ron Paul interview of Luke ...Also on LRC is a great Ron Paul interview of Luke Rudkowski in which Luke explains how in the Mexican town of Cheran, once the people were able to drive out the political class, the government, and the police it was an easy matter to then drive out the drug cartels and criminal element. For almost a decade now this small town, and many others in the Michoacán region of Mexico, have been living in a state of anarchy - and loving it. Prosperity is way up while the cost of things once provided by government is way down and way better. Their credo seems to be 'Anarchy. Just do it'. And of course since they are now thriving they have no inclination to abandon their home and migrate to the US - although surely such libertarian anarcho-capitalist minded individuals would be a welcome addition !Victorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12985538497409080098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-17393075016594047702018-10-27T20:18:45.130-07:002018-10-27T20:18:45.130-07:00"...that's a cheap cop out..."
Mayb..."...that's a cheap cop out..."<br /><br />Maybe, maybe not. But it is the law. And I am only playing by the rules that you set!<br /><br />:-)bionic mosquitohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12002548958078731031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-17439235894306860072018-10-27T20:16:42.115-07:002018-10-27T20:16:42.115-07:00Carlos, I can live with and even endorse "mot...Carlos, I can live with and even endorse "motivate" or "inspire" or "stimulate." So we don't disagree here.<br /><br />"But I think we both agree that until things get pretty darn uncomfortable for most people, they have little motivation (incitement?) to demand change."<br /><br />The votes for Trump and Sanders demonstrate this. As the supporters of neither are getting what they want, I believe it will only get worse (or better) in 2020. See the Angelo Codevilla piece at LRC this weekend - along with everything else he has written on this topic.<br /><br />"I just don't believe that there is anywhere near a critical mass of like-minded people to successfully demand and achieve devolution and political decentralization in the US."<br /><br />Not yet and maybe not soon. But as the center is no longer allowable, the sides are moving toward extremes. I fully grant, not libertarian extremes. But I will start with decentralization.<br /><br />I have no doubt that the red counties would accept this outcome today. We just need the blue counties to see the light.bionic mosquitohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12002548958078731031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-57895869571969022152018-10-27T19:47:39.006-07:002018-10-27T19:47:39.006-07:00Bringing in more people who could not be more anti...Bringing in more people who could not be more anti-Jeffersonian in their view of government surely will bring libertarian utopia.<br />It is almost working.<br />Bring more.<br />Jefferson's tree needs watering.JaimeInTexashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08729407700850451849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-34545782996758493102018-10-27T19:05:11.666-07:002018-10-27T19:05:11.666-07:00Bionic--
As to Ringer, I agree regarding his reco...Bionic--<br /><br /><i>As to Ringer, I agree regarding his recommendations for changes in law. However, I am confused, when you reject his conclusion and state: “It's a really radical suggestion. It's called following the law.”</i><br /><br />Your confusion stems from the fact that my comment was in regard to Judge Napolitano's statements regarding the current law in place for Central American refugees seeking asylum.<br /><br />Regarding the president's authority to turn away all non-citizens at our border by declaring an emergency, that's a cheap cop out but I wouldn't put it past Trump to do so. Carloshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03504618827662424451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-51595880179980615562018-10-27T16:28:06.276-07:002018-10-27T16:28:06.276-07:00Bionic--
Have I written this? Seriously? I just p...Bionic--<br /><br /><i>Have I written this? Seriously? I just pushed back on the idea of inciting a populace. For most of the populace, this doesn’t end well.</i><br /><br />Poor word choice on my part. Instead of using the word "incite" I should have said "motivate" or "inspire" or "stimulate." I certainly do <i><strong>not</strong></i> advocate revolution like the French or Russian varieties you cite. But I think we both agree that until things get pretty darn uncomfortable for most people, they have little motivation (incitement?) to demand change.<br /><br /><i>I disagree. They are pushing for political decentralization.</i><br /><br />I hope you are right but that's not what I see at all. I have long been an advocate for something akin to the Swiss cantonal system as it was originally conceived and structured [https://liberty-intl.org/2000/03/the-swiss-cantonal-system-a-model-democracy/]. I see that as at least a baby step along the path toward a more libertarian society.<br /><br /><i>But you tell me your plan. What do you mean by “incite a populace”? Spell it out plainly; be specific.</i><br /><br />I don't need to devise a plan; it's playing out before our eyes right now. I just don't believe that there is anywhere near a critical mass of like-minded people to successfully demand and achieve devolution and political decentralization in the US. Everything I see indicates that the impetus is--as ATL and Jonathan posited--for greater centralized authority, power and control.<br /><br />I don't see things breaking our direction until things go to heck-in-a-handbasket. And--regrettably--I fear that's not too far down the road the way things are going.Carloshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03504618827662424451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-68754590715630585072018-10-27T13:57:58.205-07:002018-10-27T13:57:58.205-07:00Carlos
“Do you deny that moving from our current ...Carlos<br /><br />“Do you deny that moving from our current situation to a libertarian society would be a radical change?”<br /><br />In many ways, I deny that it would be a radical change. In a few of the most important ways, it would be a radical change.<br /><br />“Do you honestly contend that transitioning to a libertarian society could be done slowly and incrementally without upheaval and without any precipitating conditions? Seriously?”<br /><br />Have I written this? Seriously? I just pushed back on the idea of inciting a populace. For most of the populace, this doesn’t end well.<br /><br />“Yes, you are absolutely right. The populace is indeed pushing for change. But the change they are pushing for is not in a direction at all favorable for libertarians.”<br /><br />I disagree. They are pushing for political decentralization. Do this a few dozen times in a few dozen places around the world and we might start evolving more toward a libertarian world – where each individual will have a multitude of governance structures from which to choose. As lalalibertarian utopia is not an option, it is the best we can do in a world of imperfect humans.<br /><br />But you tell me your plan. What do you mean by “incite a populace”? Spell it out plainly; be specific.<br />bionic mosquitohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12002548958078731031noreply@blogger.com