tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post724549876693916697..comments2024-03-28T09:59:13.754-07:00Comments on bionic mosquito: Dilly Dillybionic mosquitohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12002548958078731031noreply@blogger.comBlogger60125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-80304438168459954332018-02-02T19:38:38.763-08:002018-02-02T19:38:38.763-08:00"I'd be honestly prepared to state that I..."I'd be honestly prepared to state that I'd accept the oppression of a central state if it means I could enjoy the other fruits of the modern economy."<br /><br />Maybe it doesn't have to be either / or?<br /><br />As to the serfs, they had many freedoms unavailable to those of us in the west today.<br /><br />http://bionicmosquito.blogspot.com/2012/10/the-road-from-serfdom.html bionic mosquitohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12002548958078731031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-62245313974937697542018-02-02T07:34:49.373-08:002018-02-02T07:34:49.373-08:00Also the claim about political freedom in the Midd...Also the claim about political freedom in the Middle Ages does seem outlandish to me. My impression is there was freedom for aristocrats vis-a-vis the king (absolute monarchy didn't become a thing until the early modern period), but the peasants were always quasi-slaves while the city burghers were still just a small part of the population. And I'm not sure why he praises the guilds and their protectionist policies so much when he elsewhere praises free markets.<br /><br />If he wants to argue that the growth of the state was unnecessary for the growth of trade, that's one thing, but he is saying that the medieval period was positively better than ours in significant respects. I'd be honestly prepared to state that I'd accept the oppression of a central state if it means I could enjoy the other fruits of the modern economy.<br /><br />The weakness of Hoppe's argument in that piece is that he seems to be preaching to those he's already converted. Most people are not going to nod along and say "oh yes, it was so much better back when the vast majority of people lived at subsistence level but at least powerful noblemen could defy the king from time to time".jgresshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03287009809340785879noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-41219915024668356202018-02-02T07:13:37.512-08:002018-02-02T07:13:37.512-08:00I see what you're saying. And I also remember ...I see what you're saying. And I also remember Rothbard having good things to say about the Middle Ages, e.g. his use of medieval Ireland as an example of polycentric law in practice. David Friedman has done the same for medieval Iceland.jgresshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03287009809340785879noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-54654032894134909462018-02-01T17:56:00.240-08:002018-02-01T17:56:00.240-08:00“Though I wonder just how absolute Monarchies real...“Though I wonder just how absolute Monarchies really were in the later middle ages, whether they had any power in comparison to the democratic tyrannies of Napoleon, Lenin, Hitler, and the like.”<br /><br />It might be worth considering the 100 Years’ War, fought by the two most centralized governments of Europe in the later Middle Ages – England and France. I have not studied it in tremendous detail, but I imagine the monarchs, respectively, had pretty strong control to wage battle for 100 years.<br />bionic mosquitohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12002548958078731031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-73282399491253131142018-02-01T08:37:48.189-08:002018-02-01T08:37:48.189-08:00BM,
Upon further review of my copy of "Kings...BM,<br /><br />Upon further review of my copy of "Kingship" I've found that I oversimplified it quite a bit. Kern traces the rise of absolutism from strands of Germanic custom, Christian doctrine, and the reintroduction of the Ancient Roman notion of popular sovereignty.<br /><br />The Romans believed that the people were sovereign, but once they vested power to the monarch, that power was inviolable and irrevocable. In Christianity he sees the doctrine of passive obedience, turned into a right of kings to unconditional obedience from their subjects. In Germanic custom I believe it was some form of pagan consecration that lent itself to absolutism, but I'm not positive on that. It may have been the Germanic custom of kin right instead.<br /><br />Within Germanic and Christian customs, however, there were the balancing forces of the rights of resistance against law breaking monarchs, whether the laws broken were old and good laws or ecclesiastical and natural laws respectively. And it wasn't until these balancing forces were abandoned, and customary law was replaced by positive law, that absolutism reigned.<br /><br />Though I wonder just how absolute Monarchies really were in the later middle ages, whether they had any power in comparison to the democratic tyrannies of Napoleon, Lenin, Hitler, and the like.<br /><br />This quote I pulled from Wikipedia is interesting though I cannot verify it.<br /><br />"Nothing so clearly indicates the limits of royal power as the fact that governments were perennially in financial trouble, unable to tap the wealth of those most able to pay, and likely to stir up a costly revolt whenever they attempted to develop an adequate income." - William Bouwsma<br /><br />The quote is referenced to the book, "Absolutism and Its Discontents: State and Society in Seventeenth Century France and England" written by Michael Kimmel. I have not read the book, but its free at google books. Might be worth a read sometime.<br /><br />https://books.google.com/books?id=yUWyyvJSTb8C&pg=PR7&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=false<br />A Texas Libertarianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02980539931923054404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-73941723395038585772018-02-01T04:13:47.247-08:002018-02-01T04:13:47.247-08:00Good point about the reintroduction of slavery (sl...Good point about the reintroduction of slavery (slave trade at least), to compare the new age with the Middle Ages.<br /><br />When the first slave traders came with their ships to Dutch harbors, they were hounded/hunted down the city by the outraged Dutch populace (still with a medieval mindset against slavery).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-90356667428566865252018-02-01T02:25:32.208-08:002018-02-01T02:25:32.208-08:00I really must go back and read his book "Demo...I really must go back and read his book "Democracy" again - as I have mentioned, I read it very early on in this phase of bionic's development.<br /><br />I do recall that he has suggested that we really cannot say how society and the economy might have developed had the law of the Middle Ages continued to be developed as opposed to the monopoly state laws.<br /><br />Yet, I too have struggled with the issue you raise; as I have mentioned - I really like air-conditioning. I just can't say if I could have had both air conditioning and the old and good law.... Must it be either / or?<br /><br />I will also add: the idea that the growth of commerce is a good to be placed higher than the relative political freedom of the Middle Ages is "good" also could use some further examination. <br /><br />Let's keep in mind - this growth of commerce came with the reintroduction of massive slavery by western countries (virtually eliminated during the Middle Ages) and with wars of previously unimaginable destruction between these same western nations.<br /><br />Can't say if this was a good trade.bionic mosquitohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12002548958078731031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-43313634161393430472018-01-30T15:42:33.553-08:002018-01-30T15:42:33.553-08:00I seem to remember Rothbard discussing the ways in...I seem to remember Rothbard discussing the ways in which feudalism retarded economic progress by e.g. forbidding the sale of land out of the family. Aside from that, I think Hoppe has a challenge in convincing people like me that the period from the Middle Ages to now was one of decline and disorder rather than growth and progress. I think the thesis that the growth of centralized states was necessary in promoting commerce and dismantling old feudal strictures needs a more thorough refutation. Would you say Hoppe answers this satisfactorily in his book on democracy?jgresshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03287009809340785879noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-87389063244183853612018-01-26T19:42:38.301-08:002018-01-26T19:42:38.301-08:00ATL, I now have two new areas to explore on this t...ATL, I now have two new areas to explore on this topic: yours, and what was offered by Victor above.<br /><br />Thank you.bionic mosquitohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12002548958078731031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-81600100765989684112018-01-26T15:08:38.027-08:002018-01-26T15:08:38.027-08:00"In practice, the free exercise of the right ..."In practice, the free exercise of the right to change leaders was tempered by traditions of personal and family loyalty, as well as by practical considerations, such as proximity to a chieftain." - Byock<br /><br />"Because of the weak hold of goðar on their thingman and the competition among chieftains for the allegiance of bændr, individual chieftains were unable to impose taxes successfully on their followers." – Byock<br /><br />“Since the goðar did not have the claim to obedience, they functioned by gaining the consent, often through gifts and other forms of solicitation, of the society's politically important populace, the þingfararkaupsbændr. These 4,000 or 5,000 substantial heads of households controlled most of the island's productive land, and almost all the population, estimated at 60,000, lived on their farms. The relationship between a goði and his thingman was a personal bond, a contract for mutual support and aid between two parties which was unhampered by executive institutions.” – Byock<br /><br />“Reciprocity has operated in many early and modern societies. Its role becomes more dominant in societies that rely upon bonds of obligations rather than upon a formal arrangement of institutions. The absence of dominant leaders does not in itself mean an absence of order; rather, it suggests a lateral social control with decisions made according to community norms instead of administrative orders. In Iceland reciprocity served as the primary structuring mechanism of society.” – Byock<br /><br />So here we had chieftains providing voluntary dispute resolution services in relatively peaceful cooperation with other chieftains (there were feuds between chieftains – no system is perfect) for the landowning farmers near them. There was a central court called the Althing, where many chieftains would gather to discuss the efficacy of laws and to settle disputes as peacefully as possible between powerful groups. Not all the people were free to choose a Chieftain. Poor fishermen and hired hands on the farms pretty much were stuck with the chieftain chosen by their landlord.<br /><br />It lasted for at least 200 years, before several powerful families amassed enough power to hand Iceland over to the Norwegian Monarchy.<br /><br />See Byock's complete works here:<br /><br />http://www.viking.ucla.edu/publications/index.html<br />A Texas Libertarianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02980539931923054404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-91799745391720189762018-01-26T15:08:28.849-08:002018-01-26T15:08:28.849-08:00Medieval Iceland (10th and 11th centuries) was abo...Medieval Iceland (10th and 11th centuries) was about as close to a voluntary decentralized law society as we've ever seen for any extended period of time. Jesse Byock is the man to consult here. I've read his book, "Medieval Iceland: Society, Sagas, and Power." It is a great read and one I highly recommend for those who see the merits of medieval law and its relation to a free society.<br /><br />https://www.amazon.com/Medieval-Iceland-Society-Sagas-Power/dp/0520069544<br /><br />Byock's essay below is a much quicker way of getting acquainted with Iceland's social and political structure during this time. <br /><br />http://www.viking.ucla.edu/publications/articles/governmental_order.pdf<br /><br />Here are some interesting quotes from it:<br /><br />"The concept of goðar [chieftain] as leaders of small states reflects the outward forms of the confrontational politics practiced by chieftains. The idea, however, fails to take into account the complex relationship between the goðar and the bændr [farmer, thingman, freeman], which relied not on a territorial definition hut on negotiable bonds of obligation. A goðorð [a chieftain’s association] was not a discrete territorial unit. The chieftains lived interspersed among farmers who served as thingmen of different and sometimes rival goðar. The political map of Iceland was a complex network of criss-crossing ties with chieftains relying for support on farmers, some of whom lived at considerable distances from their goðar. " – Byock<br /><br />"Grágás, the thirteenth-century collections of Free State law, clearly define the freeman's right to choose his goði, a right characteristic of a nonterritorial concept of authority." – Byock<br /><br />“According to Grágás only hired hands and impoverished fishermen were denied the right to choose their own goði, although the extent to which a tenant farmer felt free to exercise his rights must have varied with the landlord.” - Byock<br /><br />"Once a farmer had chosen a goði he was not bound to him, hut had the right to change. By the same token, the chieftains could break off a relationship with a thingman" – Byock<br />A Texas Libertarianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02980539931923054404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-11825934247071225922018-01-25T20:49:38.959-08:002018-01-25T20:49:38.959-08:00As to the Paleos not being alt-right.As to the Paleos not being alt-right.JaimeInTexashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08729407700850451849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-22482016858625585712018-01-25T17:36:26.982-08:002018-01-25T17:36:26.982-08:00Matt, I agree with your assessment re. Francis and...Matt, I agree with your assessment re. Francis and Sobran. Sigh! Once NR was worth reading.<br /><br />As to the Lake is not being alt-right. Paleos are an older group and enough of us alt-right. We got tired of talking right and ruling left, and by golly, we are to take it since we had nowhere to go. That is why cuckservative was coined.<br />Francis and Sobran had a fighting spirit. Hold to virtue but politics is war other means and they understood that we also hard to win.<br />Yeah, many are alt-right.JaimeInTexashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08729407700850451849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-24457709521498272482018-01-25T17:17:04.892-08:002018-01-25T17:17:04.892-08:00Stringham’s piece is not on point at all; your exa...Stringham’s piece is not on point at all; your example of Early Irish Law is worth further exploration – parts of it sounds similar to the Germanic Middle Age law (no surprise), parts different; the example of Somalia is not time-tested, although interesting.bionic mosquitohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12002548958078731031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-11692705897585380002018-01-25T14:48:06.967-08:002018-01-25T14:48:06.967-08:00"I can't answer this with any authority.&..."I can't answer this with any authority."<br /><br />I'll see if I can find a direct quote and page number in the book tonight if I remember.A Texas Libertarianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02980539931923054404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-7169311592917619262018-01-25T09:03:59.684-08:002018-01-25T09:03:59.684-08:00Ed Stringham points out that most, and certainly t...Ed Stringham points out that most, and certainly the most effective governance, is private though largely invisible: https://www.cato-unbound.org/2015/10/05/edward-peter-stringham/how-private-governance-made-modern-world-possible<br /><br />There is the famous case of the Brehon in Ireland, a system of private justice functioning outside of political control: https://mises.org/library/private-law-emerald-isle<br /><br />Then there is the perennial favorite of libertarians, Somalia and the Xeer: https://mises.org/library/rule-law-without-state<br /><br /><br /><br />Victorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12985538497409080098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-84395508249564695402018-01-25T04:40:47.556-08:002018-01-25T04:40:47.556-08:00ATL - Paleoconservatism is interesting, but the al...ATL - Paleoconservatism is interesting, but the alt-right is not a child of the paleocons. The reason for this is that the alt-right rejects conservatism entirely (which is an attitude rather than an ideology, per Russel Kirk).<br /><br />If Patrick Buchanan was somehow alt-right he would be alt-right now, and he isn't. I suspect that Sam Francis would have become alt-right if he was still alive. Joe Sobran too.Matt@Occidentalism.orghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02395220402283030311noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-50228486153539537132018-01-24T19:27:19.589-08:002018-01-24T19:27:19.589-08:00"...the society absolutely free of political ..."...the society absolutely free of political control."<br /><br />I would love to find examples and then write about these. Can you offer any? I mean any that were functional and safe for some extended period of time?bionic mosquitohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12002548958078731031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-26380909062620505622018-01-24T19:23:42.174-08:002018-01-24T19:23:42.174-08:00ATL
"...rather it bloomed after the rediscov...ATL<br /><br />"...rather it bloomed after the rediscovery of some of the ancient (pagan) Roman and Greek concepts of law and justice. Am I remembering this correctly?"<br /><br />I can't answer this with any authority. <br /><br />I have been fighting the urge to spend $80 on Casey's book. I really think I will eventually give in.bionic mosquitohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12002548958078731031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-54943078486684250092018-01-24T10:13:17.509-08:002018-01-24T10:13:17.509-08:00The only really safe society is the society absolu...The only really safe society is the society absolutely free of political control. Wherever political control is found, there is found a ceaseless struggle to gain possession of it. The existence of political power incites ceaseless conflict. One group briefly gains its control and sets about oppressing another group. The oppressed group organizes, rebels, there is a revolution. The oppressed group now having seized political power immediately sets about oppressing their past oppressors. The existence of political power incites an endless cycle of conflict. Oppressors and oppressed exchange places over and over. Yesterday's 'deviants' have for the moment seized political power. That is the meaning of the Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission case. Hobbes actually had the whole phenomenon upside down: Absent political authority people tend to be cooperative, they readily accept 'natural law', their inventive and productive spirit manifests and it becomes possible to look back and attribute to them culture and civilization. It is under political control that life is nasty, brutish, and very often shortened. One of the most urgent libertarian goals, according to Rothbard, is to get the control of security and justice out of the hands of the political class and back under consumer control. Among the many boons this will bring is an end to the current cycles of conflict incited by political power. The return to free market free enterprise security and justice is alternatively criticized as Utopian and dystopian: Some say it could never happen. Others say free market security would soon be taken over by the rich and powerful and become just another variation on the present monopoly government security. I disagree. Most security is already private enterprise. Even though private enterprise is 2 or 3 times larger than monopoly government security, it has never challenged monopoly government security for the simple reason that its goals are completely different. Private enterprise security is concerned only to safeguard property rights and individual rights because its incentive is to make a profit and retain customers. By contrast, monopoly government security is the mechanism by which one group dominates another only incidentally acting to safeguard rights. As well it is indifferent to both profit and customer retention. <br />Victorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12985538497409080098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-45218650149688681392018-01-24T07:41:16.089-08:002018-01-24T07:41:16.089-08:00Matt,
He broke with the Paleoconservatives in the...Matt,<br /><br />He broke with the Paleoconservatives in the 90's, after Murray Rothbard's death, due to their intransigence on economic policy (I believe), but he still has to this day much admiration and respect for Pat Buchanan, who was one of the Paleocon leaders.<br /><br />Pat could be considered Alt-Right since he is an anti-establishment Republican who disdains cultural Marxism and advocates a much more modest foreign policy (also a protectionist). What I am trying to say is that components of the Alt-Right are Paleoconservatives, and this lends credence to Perry's comment.<br /><br />The Paleocon movement arose in response to the lack of moderation in Republican foreign policy and military spending under Bush Sr. after the collapse of the Soviet Union.A Texas Libertarianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02980539931923054404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-49671445160268873572018-01-24T07:26:47.693-08:002018-01-24T07:26:47.693-08:00BM,
I'd be very interested in your thoughts a...BM,<br /><br />I'd be very interested in your thoughts after reading the book. I wonder if Casey will also find the (or at least some of the) roots of modern totalitarianism in the Enlightenment and the Reformation as you have.<br /><br />Kern had something to say about this too. I believe I remember him stating (though I'll have to reread) that the absolutism, supposed to have been found in the later monarchical period wasn't an outgrowth of the influence of the Catholic church or of Germanic custom, but rather it bloomed after the rediscovery of some of the ancient (pagan) Roman and Greek concepts of law and justice. Am I remembering this correctly?<br /><br />If I am, I believe his thesis builds upon your own, since the resurgence of absolutism wasn't a result of the 'oppressive' Catholic church, but rather a result of the subversion of its authority in regards to law and kingship by a tradition much older. A Texas Libertarianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02980539931923054404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-70857886529427440712018-01-23T18:43:44.937-08:002018-01-23T18:43:44.937-08:00BM and Perry, thanks, you've given me much to ...BM and Perry, thanks, you've given me much to think on. <br /><br />BMW, thank you, those examples were helpful. I was talking about something different, but your cultural examples have helped me refocus. <br /><br />It is interesting to think about the cultural differences and what parts of liberty are culturally acceptable. <br /><br />I need to reread all these comments and digest everything a little. <br /><br />Dave. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-53815984139551649102018-01-23T18:19:15.212-08:002018-01-23T18:19:15.212-08:00"Hoppe had a break with the alt-right as far ..."Hoppe had a break with the alt-right as far back in the 90's".<br /><br />Nope. The alt-right didn't even exist until late into the regime of George W. Bush. Most on the alt-right were radicalized in reaction to Bush's "compassionate conservatism" and war mongering.Matt@Occidentalism.orghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02395220402283030311noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-63453077878940003172018-01-23T17:12:52.327-08:002018-01-23T17:12:52.327-08:00Anonproof, let Victor speak for himself; you got H...Anonproof, let Victor speak for himself; you got Hoppe wrong, this is enough damage in one thread.bionic mosquitohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12002548958078731031noreply@blogger.com