tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post538197773613669802..comments2024-03-22T17:43:18.211-07:00Comments on bionic mosquito: The Conundrum of Libertybionic mosquitohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12002548958078731031noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-15816559289740386222017-10-11T10:13:41.616-07:002017-10-11T10:13:41.616-07:00Just got around to reading the comments here.
Se...Just got around to reading the comments here. <br /><br />Self ownership is predicated on inalienable rights. They are literally non-transferable. Choosing to do whatever the buyer says does not make one a slave. If the seller later chooses to break the contract and is prevented from doing so, the seller then becomes a slave. A third party could choose to intervene at that point without violating the NAP.<br /><br />In the not so distant past the above resembles a marriage contract with the seller being the wife.<br /> Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14010513213569295642noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-87265461939278531642017-10-08T19:33:01.467-07:002017-10-08T19:33:01.467-07:00Matt, you are going off on several tangents with y...Matt, you are going off on several tangents with your comments. I will bow out.bionic mosquitohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12002548958078731031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-78264019260732025222017-10-08T18:20:54.328-07:002017-10-08T18:20:54.328-07:00"Don't buy Soviet Vodka, knowing the cond..."Don't buy Soviet Vodka, knowing the conditions for humans in the USSR? Don't buy a German car because the tax rates approach 60%? <br /><br />Not necessarily answering the question, just asking."<br /><br />Excellent question(s)!<br /><br />I'm offering no answer(at this time).<br /><br />:)<br /><br />I will mention though that your thinking is drifting towards mine. <br /><br />How about Chinese jail labor that produces products to be sold? What if we assume some are guilty of a NAP violation and some aren't?<br /><br />Let's go even further...what about a buying products from a country who's currency is constantly debased while also being forced upon it's inhabitants against it's will? (in essence, making their products worth less over time)<br /><br />Again, I offer no answers at this time.<br />Nick Badalamentihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14015961786370759940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-22176878910439265862017-10-08T11:12:47.741-07:002017-10-08T11:12:47.741-07:00"I own myself; I can sell myself".
The ..."I own myself; I can sell myself".<br /><br />The latter abrogates your claim of self ownership. If you did the latter perhaps you can indeed self yourself but you lacked self ownership in the first place. It would put you in the category of person incapable of making decisions, like a down syndrome person, or a child.<br /><br />"I also believe one can voluntarily enter into a slave contract without violating the NAP. I find no NAP-consistent basis by which a third party can initiate aggression to stop such an action.<br /><br />On what NAP-consistent basis do you see that this action can be stopped by a third party?"<br /><br />Contrary to the myth of slave-taking ships, many of the African slaves sent from Africa to America were exactly this variety of slave - the contractual self-sellers. The government at the time was highly libertatarian and respected property rights to the extent that property, in the form of African slaves, were permitted to be brought to America by slave traders.<br /><br />This laid the groundwork for an America where a 13% of the population commits over 50% of the murders, and let's face it, most of the rest of the crime. I don't know if preventing that would have been consistent with the NAP and I don't care. Society would have been better off shooting both the slave buyer and the self-seller.<br /><br />Frankly this contracts thing is the weakest part of the ideology that you espouse. Do you hold children to contracts? No? Why not? What about an adult with the intellectual capacity of a child like a down syndrome person? What about a person with a very low IQ? The society that you envision necessarily has shysters running roughshod over the very people that can least handle it.<br /><br />If your answer to slavery is "yes, I would have permitted the importation of African slaves into America as long as they were self-sellers" is your stance, you might as well just pack it in.Matt@Occidentalism.orghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02395220402283030311noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-61692210919601275462017-10-08T08:11:04.813-07:002017-10-08T08:11:04.813-07:00I own myself; I can sell myself.
I also believe o...I own myself; I can sell myself.<br /><br />I also believe one can voluntarily enter into a slave contract without violating the NAP. I find no NAP-consistent basis by which a third party can initiate aggression to stop such an action.<br /><br />On what NAP-consistent basis do you see that this action can be stopped by a third party?bionic mosquitohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12002548958078731031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-56439711108801618942017-10-08T04:04:51.870-07:002017-10-08T04:04:51.870-07:00BM,
No, the point was not raised directly, yet th...BM,<br /><br />No, the point was not raised directly, yet the point is raised automatically by the original question.<br /><br />What contracts can be entered into, and who is able to enter into them is of vital importance. Block would have you believe that someone that has self ownership can enter into a slave contract, a performative contradiction if I ever saw one.Matt@Occidentalism.orghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02395220402283030311noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-24633594700259900722017-10-07T13:21:25.805-07:002017-10-07T13:21:25.805-07:00Matt, I am not sure that anyone raised the point o...Matt, I am not sure that anyone raised the point of the validity of a slave contract; are you asking a new question?<br /><br />Nick, a thought: where does one draw the line? Don't buy Soviet Vodka, knowing the conditions for humans in the USSR? Don't buy a German car because the tax rates approach 60%? <br /><br />Not necessarily answering the question, just asking.bionic mosquitohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12002548958078731031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-29667558444641061712017-10-07T06:20:19.249-07:002017-10-07T06:20:19.249-07:00Why should a "slave contract" be permitt...Why should a "slave contract" be permitted at all? Contracts should be upheld once made, but certain types of contracts should not be permitted, period. Among these are contracts for slavery, and sexual services contracts with children.<br /><br />Block has advocated for selling oneself into slavery, but has made unprincipled exceptions for contracts with children for no logical reason. Its impossible to debate him, however, because he simply demands that you publish in a libertarian journal before he will condescend to reply.<br /><br />TLDR; some types of contracts are always impermissible, regardless of individual interests.Matt@Occidentalism.orghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02395220402283030311noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-84084674791797060322017-10-06T20:00:16.806-07:002017-10-06T20:00:16.806-07:00"I understand (and am greatly / totally influ..."I understand (and am greatly / totally influenced by the moral issues involved); but from a libertarian standpoint...?"<br /><br />As I mentioned re that Hoppe quote the other week, I have a hard time separating morality from the NAP.(while acknowledging the role of subjectivity in both)<br /><br />:)<br /><br />"Interesting. I will have to think about this for a bit."<br /><br />I am honored you consider it worthy of your thought time.Nick Badalamentihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14015961786370759940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-83905614408724813492017-10-06T11:35:28.936-07:002017-10-06T11:35:28.936-07:00Interesting. I will have to think about this for ...Interesting. I will have to think about this for a bit. I understand (and am greatly / totally influenced by the moral issues involved); but from a libertarian standpoint...?<br /><br />Really sounds like a question for Walter Block!bionic mosquitohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12002548958078731031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-54474107243356803982017-10-06T08:11:53.529-07:002017-10-06T08:11:53.529-07:00"Remember, our philosophy is predicated upon ..."Remember, our philosophy is predicated upon the non-aggression principle, private property rights based on homesteading and voluntary trade, and the law of free association."<br /><br />I'd love to see a discussion on whether buying products from a slavemaster, made by his slaves, is a violation of the NAP from various people's subjective viewpoints.<br /><br />That might appear to be a minor/unimportant topic, but I can see the answer/answers touching on so many aspects of daily life that it would be astounding. (and I'm not volunteering my thoughts until other people offer some,if anyone chooses to, because I don't want to set boundaries on the thought/scope)Nick Badalamentihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14015961786370759940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-89812159816008401892017-10-05T11:05:52.716-07:002017-10-05T11:05:52.716-07:00"I do not see why many libertarians who want ..."I do not see why many libertarians who want to proudly display their virtue have a hard time mentioning property rights when it comes to discrimination."<br /><br />This is starting to remind me of the gender pronoun issue. Just because someone calls themself a libertarian doesn't mean that that is what they actually are. And others should not feel compelled to use their political label of choice. <br /><br />If it is simply a lack of information then it's understandable. But, once someone willfully neglects to consistently apply the non-aggression principal and property rights to certain issues, they cease being a libertarian. Jeff LeVesquehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10965742156279448637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-34457885562312392882017-10-05T08:31:48.328-07:002017-10-05T08:31:48.328-07:00"Further, as a practical matter, most busines..."Further, as a practical matter, most business people are going to want paying customers so the only color most will be worried about will be the color of money."<br /><br />Absolutely not true, and only true for very impersonal things like your mobile phone service.<br /><br />This is the dishonest libertarian dodge of the discrimination issue, although I don't blame you because you are hardly the only one doing this, Roddis.<br /><br />Far from discrimination not being profitable, in certain situations discriminating against people, particularly on basis of race, is absolutely profitable.<br /><br />Take the AirBNB platform in which accommodation is aggregated on that platform, and offered by private landowners. Many of the landowners have found it profitable to discriminate against black people. If you look at the reasons given for the discrimination, usually it isn't "racism" or a hatred for black people, but simply because the black people that stayed in their property previously trashed the place. Its probably something like the murder rate in America - Although blacks are 13% of the population, they account for over 50% of the places trashed on AirBNB.<br /><br />This is the method by which dishonest libertarians attempt to assuage the fears of blacks that libertarianism will not deliver good outcomes for blacks. Exactly the same for welfare. When welfare is eliminated blacks will have less money, not more money coming from magical jobs that American blacks are not suited for anyway.Matt@Occidentalism.orghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02395220402283030311noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-44576301390130230832017-10-05T06:13:32.185-07:002017-10-05T06:13:32.185-07:00"I do not see why any of this is controversia..."I do not see why any of this is controversial."<br /><br />I do not see why many libertarians who want to proudly display their virtue have a hard time mentioning property rights when it comes to discrimination.bionic mosquitohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12002548958078731031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-2301481657506063242017-10-05T06:11:17.721-07:002017-10-05T06:11:17.721-07:00Yes, we all discriminate.Yes, we all discriminate.bionic mosquitohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12002548958078731031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-26606635066183707832017-10-05T01:56:39.912-07:002017-10-05T01:56:39.912-07:00did not find one yet.
maxdid not find one yet.<br />maxAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-1050353641011946802017-10-04T17:52:16.381-07:002017-10-04T17:52:16.381-07:00To clarify, all the NAP says about "discrimin...To clarify, all the NAP says about "discrimination" is that strangers cannot sue you for you refusing to admit them to your property or because you refuse to enter into a contract with them. There are plenty of other sanctions available that "society" might impose upon, let's say, racists in action. They could refuse to sell them food, water or shelter. They could refuse to allow them access to private highways, insurance or court services. I do not see why any of this is controversial. <br /><br />Further, as a practical matter, most business people are going to want paying customers so the only color most will be worried about will be the color of money. Bob Roddishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17263804608074597937noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-61590232493254764532017-10-04T16:09:13.630-07:002017-10-04T16:09:13.630-07:00Hey bionic mosquitos don’t we as(humans all discri...Hey bionic mosquitos don’t we as(humans all discriminate? Isn’t life full of discrimination?<br />I know we are talking about property (& Sellers) owner’s discriminating on bases of race, gender and sexual lifestyle. They still discriminate on other bases. One such example is Bank loans checking your past credit on whether or not you can pay back the loan. Most business are allowed to discriminate (in fact encourage to by the state with fines if they do not) on age with Alcohol and if the person is too drunk. I know some clubs with not let you in without the right dress code or if you look too drunk and if you break the rules of the club you will be ask to leave and if not force to leave, that is discrimination. <br /><br />Customer themselves are allowed to discriminate by not going to a shop they don't like (unless we are talking about taxes and state subsidized business). <br /><br />No society in history has gotten rid of discrimination of some sort or another. The ones that get closest tend to be the less civilized societies and this is because don’t enforce many standards.<br />JohnChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13581478171873562100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-9850999159701802532017-10-04T14:51:33.052-07:002017-10-04T14:51:33.052-07:00I enjoyed the article by Richard. Freedom of assoc...I enjoyed the article by Richard. Freedom of association and dis-association is a topic that was not difficult to understand for me as I have always enjoyed reading Sowell. Listening to my left libertarian friends made me feel as though I was misunderstanding something. Until, I realized every time I brought up discrimination they brought up racist. They are truly the ones incorrect in applying the foundation of libertarianism. <br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16275223014949453279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-57241012811962642782017-10-04T06:28:02.925-07:002017-10-04T06:28:02.925-07:00Max, which one dude? Where is it? A name or GPS co...Max, which one dude? Where is it? A name or GPS coordinates, please.Matt@Occidentalism.orghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02395220402283030311noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-28565113292855875122017-10-04T04:07:24.546-07:002017-10-04T04:07:24.546-07:00max, thank you for the link. max, thank you for the link. bionic mosquitohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12002548958078731031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-59045280490334639352017-10-04T00:57:08.441-07:002017-10-04T00:57:08.441-07:00Hey Max, in which society does your freedom of ass...Hey Max, in which society does your freedom of association apply?<br /><br />In a free society<br /><br />maxAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-14787903118288601442017-10-04T00:55:07.193-07:002017-10-04T00:55:07.193-07:00Again, for libertarians the issue is clear cut: A ...Again, for libertarians the issue is clear cut: A person has the fundamental right to associate with anyone he chooses and on any basis he chooses. He might be the biggest bigot in the world, choosing only to associate with white supremacists, but that’s what freedom is all about — the right to make whatever choices one wants in his life, so long as his conduct is peaceful — i.e., no murder, rape, theft, fraud, or other violent assaults against others.<br /><br />https://www.fff.org/2010/05/24/evil-statism/<br /><br />maxAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-50213259388023091102017-10-03T19:49:29.934-07:002017-10-03T19:49:29.934-07:00Hey Max, in which society does your freedom of ass...Hey Max, in which society does your freedom of association apply?Matt@Occidentalism.orghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02395220402283030311noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-65727535921502508782017-10-03T19:10:34.682-07:002017-10-03T19:10:34.682-07:00So...I clicked the link where Hornberger supposedl...So...I clicked the link where Hornberger supposedly said this:<br /><br />"Error 404 - Page Not Found"<br /><br />As I trust Vance, I assume it is so. But I would really like to read the context.<br /><br />As you brought it up, maybe you can find the good link?bionic mosquitohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12002548958078731031noreply@blogger.com