tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post2202576062048209562..comments2024-03-28T09:59:13.754-07:00Comments on bionic mosquito: NAP Time IIbionic mosquitohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12002548958078731031noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-70626319651355569312017-11-09T05:33:40.127-08:002017-11-09T05:33:40.127-08:00The problem A.L., is without the ability to discri...The problem A.L., is without the ability to discriminate and exclude, collectivists and communists will invade your society and destroy it.<br /><br />Freedom of movement is not a right. That would more accurately be called "freedom of trespass". You don't have a right enter my living room and start homesteading.Dave Narbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10773693145577366704noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-91185863659393728372017-11-08T10:01:51.766-08:002017-11-08T10:01:51.766-08:00I imagine the same. But we can't give it for g...I imagine the same. But we can't give it for granted. The nap imply freedom to associate or not associate. But how this freedom will be used in reality? It depends, by the culture and the psichology of the people. So, also if many right libertarian like to stress only the right to exclude, to close the border, to discriminate, to segregate, to phisically remove people, to be intolerant, and so on... the freedom to move, in reality, beyond theory, is fundamental for libertarianism and capitalism. I think that culture matter but I have different cultural traits in mind, than the traits shown by many alt right and right libertarian people.<br /><br />A.L.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-36830285944329598452017-11-04T06:50:01.576-07:002017-11-04T06:50:01.576-07:00Yes Jeff, every open borders advocate in this deba...Yes Jeff, every open borders advocate in this debate, every one, is in favor of using OPM for it. See my previous comment breaking it down. Catholic charities send the Bill to USG for you & me to pay for their care. Brannon pointed out that the bishops were not so charitable until they started losing numbers of attendees and donors. Even the Pope took in only a couple of Christian families but after publicity took in ONE Muslim family.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-13042594623360367472017-11-04T06:37:31.102-07:002017-11-04T06:37:31.102-07:00MISSING in this discussion, perhaps unrecognized i...MISSING in this discussion, perhaps unrecognized in the theoretical framework.<br /><br />Taking the USA and Europe as examples, the "Open Borders" policies are NOT AT ALL what it seems like both libertarian sides of the open/closed borders have narrowly missed. <br /><br />The USA and European Open Borders policies are NOT a freely come freely go policy. They are just one part of a more comprehensive and often surreptitious program of population control. <br /><br />The instant that a person especially a child hits the border line, he immediately falls into this very much government program, paid for by tax extortion and currency devaluation (inflation by deficit). <br /><br />Under "Open Borders" policies, <br />not absolutely anybody can come. <br /><br />The Honduran leaders that fought back against the fraudulent and forcible Chavista auto-coup in Honduras had their visas revoked and to this day I have not heard of any reinstatement. Not open for them even to Germany.<br /><br />The "entrant" is immediately taken in to a government program. If there is no one to receive him, he is given good welfare benefits. The more the better, to satisfy the millionaire demands of the crony corporations who get the contracts to provide a living for them and often better care than native welfare kids get.<br /><br />Then more stolen money is used to relocate arriving families anywhere government agreements place them. Again, monthly subsistence guaranteed. Also often against the near unanimous will of the communities they are placed into, with further incidentals paid for with more stolen local-tax money.<br /><br />Even all green card visas require first a sponsorship of some kind, a promise to support, but it is never ever enforced or even verified.<br /><br />So make no mistake: ANY AND EVERY government "Open Borders" policy is NEVER anything like a theoretical libertarian-friendly policy. <br /><br />Add to that the fact that the recent Euro-american programs involve a massive invitation to participate in these relocation programs organized by regimes who are using extorted illegitimate wealth to change the culture of those same victims they steal from. <br /><br />--me, a happy gringo with wife And ex and step kids from Latin America and umpteen Latino bio children, brownish, happily surrounded by Hispanic culture here in Miami. Former full time missionary down south for decades. Accusations of xenophobia or "hate" only get loud raucous laughter from me, a fundamentalist Bible thumping born again Genesis-One creationist and libertarian because the Bible and Golden Rule tell me so.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-86629408376966383032017-11-04T05:48:25.944-07:002017-11-04T05:48:25.944-07:00"What about aerial or subterrarian tresspassi..."What about aerial or subterrarian tresspassing"? I believe this issue has been addressed by Walter Block. And IIRC homesteading the surface should extend upward to finite <br />distance, as determined by local custom. (I. e. what BM said.) Downward something similar as long as surface ownership is not harmed in some way. Technology gray area there.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-32368305170325399392017-11-03T19:56:56.218-07:002017-11-03T19:56:56.218-07:00Why would you suggest that in a totally libertaria...Why would you suggest that in a totally libertarian society there would be excessive limitation of freedom of movement?<br /><br />I would imagine it would be quite the opposite.Dave Narbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10773693145577366704noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-24229160851401557902017-11-03T19:54:38.554-07:002017-11-03T19:54:38.554-07:00Holy cr@p. Is this THE Jeff Deist..?!
Bionic bett...Holy cr@p. Is this THE Jeff Deist..?!<br /><br />Bionic better watch it out, or he's gonna get drafted to the big leagues!<br /><br />And, I couldn't agree more with your suggestion for these "charities". So easy to be charitable with OPM (Other People's Money).Dave Narbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10773693145577366704noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-60633672640342544822017-11-03T10:29:26.239-07:002017-11-03T10:29:26.239-07:00I would love to see Catholic Charities, ELCA and o...I would love to see Catholic Charities, ELCA and other dopey leftwing religious groups agree to a sponsorship system-- whereby they agree to support immigrants financially and generally assume legal responsibility for immigrants' actions & well being. This would represent true & responsible Christian charity, and I bet they'd suddenly get a bit more selective in urging Uncle Sam to take in the world.<br /><br />Bottom line is that states are defined by borders, areas (and populations) over which political leaders claim exclusive jurisdiction. Borders are the LAST thing states and politicians will ever give up-- we'll sooner get rid of Social Security. So borders will exist, and governments will control them. The only question for libertarians, under current realities, is HOW they will control them, not whether. Any answer to that question is inescapably political (meaning illiberal) and "unfair."Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14675329228366316812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-30041795796963896082017-11-03T04:57:43.182-07:002017-11-03T04:57:43.182-07:00Jaime, my view on this matter is relatively simple...Jaime, my view on this matter is relatively simple - and likely not at all consistent with pure libertarian theory: <br /><br />I believe local custom will dictate the boundaries up and down. Local custom might be established peacefully (in a evolutionary manner, e.g. aircraft flights) or might be established, if necessary, by force (what to do about slant drilling?).<br /><br />But in the end, local custom will control this matter. So I don't get to worked up about trying to find a pure libertarian answer to this question. The locals will figure out what works for them (and, in the end, what they can defend from outsiders).bionic mosquitohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12002548958078731031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-13312550179438124282017-11-02T17:46:12.950-07:002017-11-02T17:46:12.950-07:00Somebody, in the past, homesteaded. Transfer of pr...Somebody, in the past, homesteaded. Transfer of property ownership since involves a sale. Or a taking of somekind: a result of some dispute or violence. Did anyone though of how far down a property's boundary is?<br />Is determining the aerial boundary any more problematic? How is labor mixed with air, by flying kites?JaimeInTexashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08729407700850451849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-3162620699515646062017-11-02T16:30:56.667-07:002017-11-02T16:30:56.667-07:00Property imply the right to exclude. And some kind...Property imply the right to exclude. And some kind of exclusion and limitation in people circulation is a must. Otherwise property will be negated. But as a matter of fact an eccessive limitation of freedom of movememt will make the free market impossible. If freedom to move is too strictly limitated you can't have competition, division of labor, free circulation of goods. In one word you can't have capitalism.<br /><br />Anonimo LombardoAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-84828724767677362772017-11-02T14:04:43.475-07:002017-11-02T14:04:43.475-07:00I believe that those who believe that homesteading...I believe that those who believe that homesteading (or the voluntary transfer of previously homesteaded property) is the only libertarian method for securing property ownership would say that one cannot own the underground or overhead property rights absent mixing some labor with it.<br /><br />One reason I have never been settled with the idea that homesteading is the only legitimate method by which one can claim ownership in a libertarian framework.bionic mosquitohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12002548958078731031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-59765318138605809072017-11-01T20:48:21.609-07:002017-11-01T20:48:21.609-07:00JamieinTexas: Principles don't and haven't...JamieinTexas: Principles don't and haven't ever had anything to do with land contracts. If the land comes with airspace rights, it does. If it doesn't, it doesn't.Dave Narbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10773693145577366704noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-52438497121571407412017-11-01T04:53:58.314-07:002017-11-01T04:53:58.314-07:00Notice: Any "libertarian" who advocates ...Notice: Any "libertarian" who advocates for open borders under any polity except a 100% voluntary libertarian covenant community is either deluded, brain-damaged, or a crypto-communist.<br /><br />Open borders is simply a communistic euphemism that everyone should have equal access to state-expropriated resources.<br /><br />Copy paste those nuggets everywhere boys...Dave Narbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10773693145577366704noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-15576062771127936932017-11-01T04:38:36.146-07:002017-11-01T04:38:36.146-07:00Assume ownership of mineral rights. How far up and...Assume ownership of mineral rights. How far up and how far down do you own, according to libertarian principles?JaimeInTexashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08729407700850451849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-69608001921773072722017-10-31T20:58:16.640-07:002017-10-31T20:58:16.640-07:00I was debating open borders with a libertarian on ...I was debating open borders with a libertarian on Gab. After pressing him, I got him to admit that it would be permissible under libertarian theory as he sees it for illegal immigrants crossing the border to kill border guards to gain access to the United States. To the illegal immigrant that killed the border guards, no punishment must be inflicted because they killed the border guards in the process of crossing the border, which under libertarianism they have the right to do.<br /><br />Any honest open borders libertarian should admit the same. That illegal immigrants can kill border guards.Matt@Occidentalism.orghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02395220402283030311noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-86643666158677082982017-10-31T19:59:04.368-07:002017-10-31T19:59:04.368-07:00I see parallels between the problems of immigratio...I see parallels between the problems of immigration in a world of state borders and international exchange in a world of managed-trade agreements. NAFTA is 2,000 pages long and consists of subsidies and tariffs and sweetheart deals and byzantine regulations. Yet both paleo-conservatives like Pat Buchanan and left-libertarians like Nick Gillespie call it a free-trade agreement. Go figure. Tonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05242683448708605585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-86722829451407138302017-10-31T19:43:53.001-07:002017-10-31T19:43:53.001-07:00Open borders types think they are immune from the ...Open borders types think they are immune from the invisible hand and probably believe the welfare system will keep them afloat. JaimeInTexashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08729407700850451849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-65580052581445834652017-10-31T18:20:04.687-07:002017-10-31T18:20:04.687-07:00JaimieinTexas, it depends on how the property is d...JaimieinTexas, it depends on how the property is delineated, e.g. you can purchase land with or without mineral rights, water rights etc.Dave Narbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10773693145577366704noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-88582921967182418532017-10-31T18:18:50.560-07:002017-10-31T18:18:50.560-07:00Yo, Black Flag: Open borders isn't central to ...Yo, Black Flag: Open borders isn't central to libertarianism.<br /><br />Some may claim it is, but they are either misguided, or crypto-commies.Dave Narbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10773693145577366704noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-80800163140687175822017-10-31T16:30:34.239-07:002017-10-31T16:30:34.239-07:00What about aerial or subterrariantresspassing. Wha...What about aerial or subterrariantresspassing. What does libertarian theory has to say?<br />Rhetorical question. I have asked it before and I cannot find a definite libertarian answer.JaimeInTexashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08729407700850451849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-8345111693770705832017-10-31T16:27:07.720-07:002017-10-31T16:27:07.720-07:00There is no right of exit of tresspassing ... and ...There is no right of exit of tresspassing ... and caught. The penalty discussion for another day. Paging Wenzel.JaimeInTexashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08729407700850451849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-4107234066492925922017-10-31T10:36:21.548-07:002017-10-31T10:36:21.548-07:00We are left with very few options in a state contr...We are left with very few options in a state controlled country. The best option would be invite only by private property owners. Open borders are a net drain on host population. No one has a right to freedom of movement in a libertarian society. Therefore, if we should revert reach that society uninvited movement onto private property would be considered trepass rather you are in host country or out. This is not to say we would have to constantly ask permission of entry to all locations. I believe memberships would be used in places of business. A libertarian society would almost be perfection of prosperity. I saw this before rasing Hoppe in Bob Murphy "choas theory" essays on private law and defense. Hoppe and Murray broadened my horizon. I do not see why any libertarian would object to anarcho capitalism. This is peace and prosperity at its finest. Most relativist make arguments, but I think education of religion and culture can change that. Mental maturity. Thanks for this post bionic. You help greatly everyday. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16275223014949453279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-49657248829197193662017-10-31T09:59:03.963-07:002017-10-31T09:59:03.963-07:00That's the problem I have with libertarian sta...That's the problem I have with libertarian stance of "100% open borders at all times under all circumstances".<br /><br />To cite the NAP as a litmus, we need to define the property that's suffering aggression. With some libertarians, we need to clarify if we're living in Real World 2017 or an alternate universe where everyone knows what the NAP is and has a common set of definitions for the nuances it relies on. (I usually call this Libertopia, but I guess it's prone to causing meltdowns followed by a long 'reeeeeeee' sound. I don't want to send anyone to the clinic so I'll stop!)<br /><br />State borders offer us, as individuals, no say - no matter how many times we point to the NAP, this is true for both sides of the argument. State Borders, or law, serving as the gateway gives the individual no means to exercise property rights that the NAP relies on.<br /><br />If a home invader has no right to take my belongings or stake a claim to my guestroom under the NAP, then how is it concluded that freedom of entry is permissible under all circumstances?<br /><br />If this is too narrow or to unreasonable of an example, then let's ask: Does someone exercising said freedom of travel have the right to homestead my front yard to make Tent City? A micro factory? An open air porn studio? (Assume any reality or alternate dimension you want for this question. Martian terrain is also acceptable.) After all, it appears unused. It's just vegetation and dirt.Black Flaghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04264200450145227142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-648884752216444797.post-62544103554146880532017-10-31T09:19:53.994-07:002017-10-31T09:19:53.994-07:00Dave, you remind me of another obstacle for libert...Dave, you remind me of another obstacle for libertarian theory, one which it cannot overcome on this topic:<br /><br />One can deduce from libertarian theory the right to exit; one cannot deduce from libertarian theory the right to enter.<br /><br />Now, I can think of (and have written about) all of the circles and discussion points around this conundrum (including the issues raise by having state borders in the first place); my only point here is that while libertarian theory can support EMIGRATION, there is nothing inherent in libertarian theory that will support a right to IMMIGRATION.bionic mosquitohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12002548958078731031noreply@blogger.com